Category talk:Middle-earth Elves

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Anyone else feel that the categorization scheme here is deeply wrongheaded? There's no sense in having a false division between Eldar & Sindar -- in fact given the alternate meaning that "Eldar" has within the mythos such a category name should probably not have been given at all.

I propose creating a "Middle-earth Ñoldor" (or perhaps "Ñoldorin Elves"?) category, moving the relevant contents from the Eldar subcateg to that one -- and then discarding the "Eldar" category by moving its remaining contents (Vanyar, non-Sinda Teleri, ambiguous characters, etc) to the "Middle-earth Elves" categ. Tell me if you object. If not, I'll probably start the process during the weekend. Aris Katsaris 20:55, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm all with you on this one. It's too confusing to try to maintain the distinction with the current system - in some cases it is very blurry. It is, however, pretty easy to tell if an Elf is Sindarin or Ñoldorin. (I would go with Middle-earth Ñoldor for consistency.) --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My only worry about that is that the "Middle-earth" itself is somewhat misleading -- it may be taken by some to mean Middle-earth as opposed to *Valinor*. I know we've been using it in other categories (Middle-earth Elves for example) but atleast in those cases we wanted to differentiate between the elves of Tolkien's universe as a whole as contrasted to other elves. With "Ñoldor" there's no such division. Hmmph. Am still unsure -- but I guess I'll make the division with "Middle-earth Ñoldor" for consistency and we can change the name afterwards I guess, if we ever decide to revise the name of the Sindar category as well and Dunedain and other such. Aris Katsaris 22:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What about just "Ñoldor"? (Although I'm afraid the funny Ñ will make it harder for people to work with the category, there is not much to be done about that.) It's not like there are any other Ñoldor for it to be confused with. The catch is that the "Middle-earth" in front makes the term more comprehensible to the uninitiated.

I do see what you mean. "Middle-earth Sindar" is redundant, since the Sindar are, by defintion, a subset of Tolkien's Elves who remained in Middle-earth.--[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:09, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. The problem with just "Ñoldor" is the uninitiated in Tolkien's world may feel left out... What about the "Ñoldorin Elves" suggestion I made? That one atleast indicates that the Noldor is a subgroup of the Elves. And we could perhaps have "Sindarin Elves". Ofcourse the Elves in these is also redundant, but it helps for clarity.

I'm contacting Anarion as a third opinion. Aris Katsaris 02:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ñoldorin Elves vs Sindarin Elves is clear enough here (and avoids the need for Middle-earth Ñoldor: we would have to remove Finarfin from that category!) As an alternative, we could of course use Tolkien’s own subdivisions: High Elves (Ñoldor, Vanyar, Valarin Teleri) and Grey Elves (Sindar) — leaving only the Avari and Nandor for Middle-earth Elves. [[User:Anárion|АПА́ДІОП]] 09:50, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ooh! For some reason I had completely missed the possibility of High Elves. But I think I rather like -- it offers a place to put the few non-Sinda Teleri and Vanyar we know of. Aranel, what do you think?

One minor note connected to the above -- are we going to use patrilinearity (which I believe Tolkien also used) to judge ambiguous situations? Thingol would in that case be in both the High Elves and the Gray Elves category -- right? Would Luthien be in both categories by virtue of her parentage, or would the fact she had not seen the Trees herself preclude her from being in the High Elves categ? And the descendants of the Noldor whom we don't know for sure if they had ever in Valinor (e.g. Finduilas, Gil-galad), these are also considered High Elves, right?

As a further sidenote, whichever scheme we decide (Noldorin vs Sindarin or High vs Grey), I thought that the half-elven (Dior, Elwing and her brother, Earendil, Elrond and Elros, Arwen and her brothers) really didn't belong in either category. They're not Noldor *or* Sindar by virtue of patrilinear ancestry and therefore not technically High-elves either. Aris Katsaris 13:09, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thingol is the Sinda: the entire race was named such after him! He is the only Sinda to also be reckoned a High Elf, as the original ambassador to Valinor. (Hence his insult by Fëanor's sons as a "Grey Elf" was both correct, and incorrect.) Lúthien is a Sinda by her parentage (though her mother was Maia, Lúthien would not be classed as either Maia or High Elf).

As a side-note, Grey and not Gray must be adopted: this was the author's spelling.

Ñoldorin Elves born in Middle-earth should be classed as High Elves: although they had not necessarily all seen the Trees (except for the two "children" who came into Middle-earth: Orodreth son of Angrod, and Idril daughter of Turgon), they should be classed under the same category as their parents.

As for Dior, Elwing and her brothers, Eärendil, Elrond, Elros, and Elrond's children: Category:Middle-earth Half-elven ? (This category should be a child of both M-e Elves and Men) [[User:Anárion|Ана́рыён]] 13:26, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think I'll be creating the Middle-earth Half-elven categ now. Aranel, let us know what you think about the rest. "High Elves" seems the dominant option now. Aris Katsaris 14:37, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's probably better to stick them all in "Half-elven" rather than try to sort them out based on their ultimate choices. I do think it would be equally fair to put Elros, for example, under "Men", since when he chooses mortality it's permanent (and, incidentally, rather unfair - why do Elrond's children retain the choice and not Elros'children?), but we don't have clear-cut information in all cases, so better to go for accuracy rather than precision.

I like "Ñoldorin Elves" and "Sindarin Elves" better, but perhaps "High Elves" and "Grey Elves" would be more accessible. There are a few scattered cases where the distinction is unclear (Lúthien, after all, is half-Maia, but she always counted as Elven, as far as I can tell), but that's not any worse than the current system. I think some common-sense is required. Anyway, we could always subdivide a "High Elves" category if we see that there are enough articles in it. (Maybe it should be "Middle-earth High Elves", though? There are "high elves" in other stories.) --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 15:21, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ugh. With "Middle-earth High Elves" we however return to the issue of the intrusion of the not-always accurate "Middle-earth". "High Elves of Arda" perhaps? Or if people don't like that, perhaps we should return to the "Noldorin Elves" idea. Aris Katsaris 16:19, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There's also "Calaquendi" which is specific to Tolkien. It has the advantage of brevity as well. Its sole disadvantage is that it's obscure to outsiders -- but perhaps that's not too big of an issue given how we can offer a brief explanation in the category itself. Aris Katsaris 19:29, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be just as confusing as "Eldar"? On second though, we can always explaint that we mean Tolkien-style "High Elves" and "Grey Elves". Other "High Elves" in modern fantasy are generally Tolkien-inspired. (Although "High Elves of Arda" would do very nicely.) --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:36, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Back to the left…

I prefer 'High Elves' as it contrasts nicely with 'Grey Elves' (Sindar): an explanation in the category text that this refers to Elves of Middle-earth should be sufficient. I dislike the use of the term Calaquendi in this context, as it implies the need for a category Moriquendi: which should include not just Sindar, but also Avari. Similarily Amanyar (contrasts with Úmanyar) is not in my opinion a good replacement for 'High Elves'. "Of Arda" might work, but the Wikipedia already uses Middle-earth as a disambiguation format… so unless the proposal is to remove [[everything (Middle-earth)]] to [[everything (Arda)]] I am against the use of Arda here. [[User:Anárion|Ана́рыён]] 20:04, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I think that both of you have now said that 'High Elves' alone is decent enough with an explanation in the category text itself. No particular objections from me either, so I'll go ahead now and do it. Cheers! :-) Aris Katsaris 20:57, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sindar vs Grey Elves

Okay, I may have misinterpreted what we said above? I thought we meant that we'd use the names "High Elves" and "Grey Elves", right? So we'll replace "Middle-earth Sindar" with "Grey Elves"? Is that okay? Aris Katsaris 21:41, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am not opposed to the change, and it would fit better with High Elves, but unlike the change from Eldar -> High Elves I do not see a need to change it: the terms are equivalent in meaning. [[User:Anárion|Ана́рыён]] 21:43, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I know that, unlike Eldar, there's no overwhelming need of change for reasons of *accuracy*. This would simply be a stylistic change -- the same way that if we had decided for "Noldorin Elves" we could have changed the other cate4gory to "Sindarin Elves" in order to make it fit better. Isn't it better to strive for consistency whenever we can? Aris Katsaris 21:47, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed with that. For consistency reasons it would be a good change. [[User:Anárion|Ана́рыён]] 21:49, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)