Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Presbyterium
Dicdef. merge into Roman Catholic Church. - UtherSRG 05:43, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Keep. Mostly a dictdef, but one that I suspect can be improved upon by a historian of Holy Mother Church, and also a term very likely to be searched on. -- orthogonal 08:44, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Delete: It's a bit too fine a definition, here. For example, the Ox. Dict. of the Christian Church doesn't have the term. New Advent does, of course, but they have everything. I can't think of any examples of this term being used preferentially or where it has been an issue in church history. While the "presbyter-" root is useful for people to understand so that they can pick up the reason Presbyterians are called that, etc., this is too small a usage to warrant a stand alone entry. Geogre 14:07, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I vote to keep the definition (as revised). While I understand the sentiments expressed above, I feel that the entry for presbyterium attempts to recover (in accordance with the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council) the concepts of collaborative ministry and shared decision making found in the early Christian community of the sub-Apostolic age, and lost later with the establishment of the monarchial episcopate. I have revised the definition to evince these aspects and do hope that you favorably consider its inclusion. Aloysius Patacsil 18:11, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- If as Aloysius says, it's important to the ongoing principles-and-structure debates in the RC Church, then it's worth keeping- it's something people will look up. It needs some more historical background, but that can be gotten readily enough. Tentative keep. -FZ 22:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. "Presbyterate" is the current proper word for a group of priests not as or of an organization (such as a college, chapter, or order), but taken as a group. See: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_23111998_pvatican_en.html for this usage. Presbyterium is an archiac word for this idea and is also an archaic word for a part of a Catholic church now called in English "sanctuary".--Samuel J. Howard 19:02, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
- There is a distinction between the terms presbyterate and presbyterium. I do not believe that they are synonymous at all. In current usage in the Roman Catholic Church, "presbyterate" more properly refers to the "order" (generally without reference to the particular church or diocese) of those deacons who have been ordained to be pastors who anoint the sick and administer viaticum, confect the Eucharist and absolve sins (i.e., caring for souls, or cura animarum), in addition to carrying out their diaconal functions of proclaiming the gospel, preaching, baptizing, blessing marriages and presiding at funeral rites. The term "presbyterium" on the other hand refers to the "presbyterate" of a particular church in union with its Ordinary. At the mass of the Chrism on Maundy Thursday, for example, the Bishop gathers with his presbyterium (not the presbyterate) in the cathedral church to renew their committment to the priestly life, to consecrate the chrism and to bless the oil of the sick and the oil of catechumens. At the ordination of priests, after the Bishop lays hands on the ordinandi, the presbyterium (not the presbyterate) follows suit. Aloysius Patacsil 04:15, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. It seems to me that there is sufficint overlap between the terms "presbyterate" and "presbyterium" that they could be discussed within the context of the same article, which I think should be located at presbyterate. -Sean Curtin 20:32, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)