Talk:Komi language

Cyrillic character codes instead of Latin ones

JM, you replaced Unicode character values U+0456, U+04E6, U+04E7 with Latin i and Ö. That doesn't seem right. Shouldn't these be characters in the Cyrillic range?

Does anyone know about the Komi letters in the Cyrillic Supplementary range U+0500–U+050F? Do those belong to Abur?

—Michael Z. 2005-02-5 18:08 Z

Me thinks Wikipedia is badly served by letters that show up as "ӧ", but my fanatism about the Komi language is limited, why I think enough is enough after one attempt to fix this. ;-) No hard feelings. --Johan Magnus 15:29, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand. That shows up as a little "o" with two dots over it; isn't that correct? Please don't beat around the bush, but explain the problem. Your edit comment "IPA is for phonetic transcriptions" didn't give us any hints that there was a problem.

Is it a little square or question mark in your browser? Are you using MSIE/Windows? Did it look wrong before you removed Template:IPA from the page? —Michael Z. 2005-02-6 16:16 Z

The letter comes up correctly in my browser. Johan Magnus' problem is that he does not have enough glyphs in his font, so that The Komi Ӧ and ӧ will look like the latin Ö and ö for all with a good Cyrillic font, and like squares or whatever for the rest of you.

Another issue: The article should be merged with Komi Zyrian, and Komi language is the best name for the article. Trondtr.

announcement in the Komi wikipedia

Yes, I've just brought this issue to the attention of the Komi wikipedia (which suffers from the use of wrong codes): Cyrillic ӧ and і!. Everyone is welcome to help with it there.--Imz (talk) 00:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Komi language templates

If you are a native speaker of Komi then you can help translate these templates into your own language:

koiЭтiя уджкерисьыслö перем комиыт — мам кыв.

Edit

kpvThis user is a native speaker of Komi-Zyrian.

Edit

--Amazonien (talk) 03:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Writing systems

Does the section on writing systems apply specifically to Komi-Zyrian, or does it apply equally to Komi-Permyak (which is hardly mentioned in the article)? --Amble (talk) 06:38, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Название города на коми языке.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Komi ӧ

@Fdom5997 and Nosexd infinito: I don't want to keep having this discussion, but it's abundandly clear from pretty much any description of Komi that ӧ can be anything within the range [ɛ] to [ɘ] and also clear from both descriptions and actually listening to the language that the latter is the most common one. This was definitely not a typo in the article, and if either of you disagrees with the analysis this should be discussed on the talk page, not changed on the page under the fake guise of "fixing typos". Pinging also @Bababashqort and Tropylium: (not sure who else would be interested in the discussion). Thadh (talk) 08:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thadh is correct, even though the sound has a very wide range of phonetic realisations, the most commonly pronounced and the reference phoneme is indeed /ɘ/, not /ə/. This becomes even more evident from the fact that it can be released as /ɛ/, which schwa is very unlikely to be released as. Bababashqort (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

A general problem is that Komi has fairly few descriptions that use mainstream IPA transcription. In traditional Finno-Ugric Transcription everyone agrees on e̮, but this however maps to about four different IPA base vowel symbols — but yeah the range is ɘ ɤ ɜ ʌ and not ə (which is FUT ə̑). Still, we will basically either have to agree on a house standard, or to privilege one of the few recent descriptions. /ɘ/ is used by both Kuznetsov 2022 in the Oxford handbook and Blokland 2023 in the Routledge handbook, but I'm fairly sure I've also seen some usage for /ɤ/, and I've used it myself at times to steer people away from the misreading, apparently happening here too, that /ɘ/ "is basically [ə]".

IPA /ə/ being unspecified for rounding could still have the benefit of interdialectally covering for the dialects (Vishera, East Vychegda) that do have rounded [ɵ] (see e.g. Lytkin 117–130; Hausenberg 1998 uses the kinda insane notation "ë^ø"). Then again these dialects also have [ʉ] for ⟨ы⟩, which we clearly could not accommodate by any kind of a "labialization neutral" symbol, and so maybe we should not try that for ⟨ӧ⟩ either.

At least dialects with [ɛ] should be probably considered to be not just phonetically but phonologically divergent, in particular the Izhma dialect where literary noninitial ⟨ӧ⟩ corresponds to [e], is often outright written ⟨е⟩ and would be probably simplest analyzed as being /e/ like it is in Udmurt and is usually reconstructed in Proto-Permic. (I'd actually suggest *ə for PP, but that's a different story not to be hashed out at Wikipedia.) --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 15:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Tropylium so what exactly is your suggestion? Which symbol should be used? Fdom5997 (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I do not have any immediate suggestion, there would be I think a reasonable argument to be made for any one of ɘ/ə/ɤ if someone else wants to make one. Of course we should at least have a consistent pick (and not the current ɘ in the alphabet section / ə in the phonology section split). --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 22:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I would personally propose to consistently adapt [ɘ] for ⟨ӧ⟩ and [ɯ] (or, if we want to be exact, [ɯ̈]) for ⟨ы⟩, like we did on Wiktionary. These seem to be the most commonly used values in speech, and follow the surprisingly easy description in Manova (1994)'s self-guide.

I must say, the Oxford Guide's transcription seems to miss the mark in some places (like analysing the ⟨а⟩-vowel as /ɑ/, even though it's most certainly a central vowel), so I think their choice was more based on making the vowel inventory more symmetrical and recognisable for clarity than actually providing exact phonetic IPA symbols. Thadh (talk) 08:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)