Talk:St. James Infirmary Blues

Untitled

All the info below and more at this link: http://robwalker.net/html_docs/letterthirteen.html . Sorry I'm not fixing this up. --70.144.38.110 30 June 2005 00:08 (UTC)

Probably based on 18th century English ballad "The Unfortunate Rake". About a person dying of syphilis on the stairs of St. James Hospital ("As I lay dying on the stairs of St. James Hospital"). The melody of "Streets of Laredo" comes from the same song. In the USA the song transformed into "The Dying Cowboy", which was transformed into "The Dying Gambler", "Gambler's Blues" and/or "St. James Infirmary" by the blacks working the plantations. Bob Dylan used the melody for "Blind Willie McTell". The lyrics of the latter were "written" by Irving Mills under the pseudonym of Joe Primrose. First recorded by Louis Armstrong & His Savoy Ballroom Five in 1928/29 for the Okeh-label.

See my comments under Structural Changes below, and let me know what you think. (I am in touch with both Bob Harwood and Rob Walker, and I guess I shouldn't move or delete this without talking to them. BTW, neither of them seems to be particularly concerned about this article. I contacted them before making a major correction: Irving Mills (Joe Primrose) didn't win his famous litigation over the song; he lost it, hands down; Mr. Harwood is going to correct his blog accordingly. THX Sprucegrouse (talk) 12:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello

Thank you for the work you have done on this song.

I have been researching this topic and off for years, interested originally because somebody told me St James Infirmary was an Irish song, an assertion that seems less and less defensible. I’m a bit too frail now but we used to do a version of this song, which, much to my surprise, though I should have expected it, got collected - but that is another story.

I worked my way backwards through the folkloric material in search of this 19th century broadsheet or song called The Unfortunate Rake. Nobody gave an indication of where copies of it might be found. There is nothing in the Roud catalogue on the Vaughan Williams library, etc. What there IS is a song called The Unfortunate Lad. And the oldest known version is set in Covent Garden, London, and is called The Buck’s Elegy.

Professor Jenkins also traced a path back through time, past Lloyds and Goldstein to Phillips Barry. His essay is well worth a read. I was lucky enough to download a copy free of charge. I think if you asked him he’s happy to provide a copy.

Prof Jenkins noticed some of the same problems I had seen with this idea that there was a 19th century broadsheet called The Unfortunate Rake. Lack of evidence, uncritical acceptance of poorly argued claims etc.

I do suggest you have a look at what he says. ‘The Unfortunate Rake’s Progress: a Case Study in the Construction of Folklore by Collectors and Scholars’ Folklore journal 2019. 130:2 111-132.

He looks especially at the roles Phillips Barry, A L Lloyd and Alan Lomax played in constructing the story that St James came from The Unfortunate Rake.

He concludes a) the name should be the Unfortunate Lad not Rake; Ib) the idea of a 19th century Irish origin is dubious at best c) the Lad songs almost certainly has no direct connection to St James Infirmary Blues.

Thanks for reading. I shall probably be amending the article using Jenkins’ work not least because then the article might be more of an encyclopaedia type article.

Happy to discuss.

Seasons greeting to you (Its nearly Xmas now) Kate Mash 14:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash (talk • contribs)

Hello Kate Mash . I am sorry I have not been able to reply sooner. I fixed a big mistake about the song's 20th century litigation history, but only after contacting and convincing both Bob Harwood and Rob Walker that Charles Cronin and I were right about who won the lawsuit and what court decided it. Similarly, I didn't want to touch the Unfortunate Lad/Rake material without contacting you, and I am very happy you contacted me first.

I see you have weighed in on the two separate Unfortunate Wikipedia articles. SJI is basically just a footnote to the Unfortunate story or stories, and I hope you will agree that the Unfortunate story should just be a footnote to the SJI story.

Several of SJI editors who came before me noted on the SJI Talk page that the Unfortunate material does not belong here. The leader of the Galvanized Jazz Band introduces the song by saying, "You'll know less about the song after reading the Wikipedia article about it than you did to begin with," which I hope you also take into account.

 Sprucegrouse (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Other notable singers?

Is it worth mentioning other notable singers who've performed the song? There are a number written into the article already, but I was curious if I should include Josh White.

Someone should. If not you or I, who? JimCubb 22:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know how to edit on Wikipedia, but I wanted to mention that Danny Barker also did a recording of St. James Infirmary Blues. Could he be added to the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.126.24 (talk) 14:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I think any singer who has his/her own wikipedia article and who recorded St. James Informary Blues, should be referenced in the article. So somebody should add Cisco Houston and Arlo Guthrie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.86.116.180 (talk) 20:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Location of Infirmary

Does anyone know if the historic location that this song's title is based on isn't the Saint James Infirmary in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimmithy (talk • contribs) 06:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

It more likely is referring to St James Hospital in Liverpool (England) --David Broadfoot 02:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed it was in New Orleans, so associated with drinking, gambling, prostitution, and of course, early jazz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.173.205 (talk) 01:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've provided the necessary reference tracing the Infirmary to London (outis9). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outis9 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

In a 1970's BBC interview B.B. King stated that the song had originated in Liverpool and taken to the southern states, where it changed from a maudlin Victorian ballad to a blues. He claimed it is the oldest blues song. St. James Hospital was a very old hospital on Tollemache Road in Birkenhead (across the river from Liverpool)in the 1970's when I was there, and it doesn't seem to exist any more. It used to be known as the "Fever Hospital" located next to the main cemetery. It had moved up the hill from Livingstone Street at some point in the 19th C. The St. James link comes from the 11thC Benedictine Priory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.11.214 (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the song more likely referring to the Civil War hospital in New Orleans, at the St. James Hotel? [1][2] Mathew5000 (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I don't see any reference tracing the original place to London. I find a reference to an article about a workhouse in London, which conjectures that the song St James Infirmary Blues might be about the workhouse. That article incorrectly states that the song dates from the 19th century, which it is an early 20th century song. So the comment in the article doesn't accurately reflect the source material it cites. Kate Mash 11:18, 11 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash (talk • contribs)

Moreover, there is no evidence that a British song prior to 1900 used the words St James anything. This idea seems to originate in liner notes written by Kenneth Goldstein in the 1950. I am coming to think that this idea is worth called 'an urban myth'.

Further, why is everybody assuming that the name has to refer to any real place at all? People make things up for songs.

Thank you for reading. Kate Mash 11:22, 11 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash.

There's also a very old St. James's Hospital in Dublin. Not to imply I have any reason to believe it to be the song's own. 2A02:8084:4EE0:6900:E4F5:E4DC:4C5C:223D (talk) 20:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Structural Comments

This song has a long and relatively well documented history going back to the 18th century, and this is not thoroughly documented at the moment in Wikipedia. Since in my opinion, this history is what makes this collection of songs so interesting, I think it is worthy of inclusion here. I expanded a little bit on this history in my update, and provided a starting reference. (outis9)

I would much prefer that the main article for this collection of songs be The_Unfortunate_Rake, rather than the this current article St_James_Infirmary_Blues, even though St_James_Infirmary_Blues is perhaps the most famous version. Folding the background and history into The_Unfortunate_Rake makes it easier to introduce all the variations which spring from The_Unfortunate_Rake in a cleaner way. However this is a significant change, so I simply added the history to St_James_Infirmary_Blues. (outis9)

It's like the weather: everyone complains about this section of the article, but no one does anything about it!

I have traced this digression back to a single Wikipeian's edits many years ago--the first and last she ever made on Wikipedia. They were branded "vandalism" at the time and although that was removed, this section of the article has been criticized multiple times since. I wrote to the original contributor several weeks ago, asking if she minded my deleting it all, and have received no response.

Although, I originally planned to delete the entire section, but maybe your suggestion of moving it to the existing Unfortunate Rake article is a better one. I may do that soon, and let the guardians of that article decide whether it's worth keeping there or not. (I'll explain in the talk section over there what I'm doing and why.)

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to take the blame for perpetuating this tedious debate, and don't really want to edit it. I will give it more thought, and would be grateful for advice about what's best to do, Sprucegrouse (talk) 11:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Notability

Lots of people have recorded and/or performed this song. Therefore, we need some standard of notability to decide who should be mentioned in the article and who should not. If we list every performer, the article would become unwieldy. In the best scenario, rather than just a litany of names, we would have some detail as to when the recording was made, what album it appeared on, whether it was recorded more than once, if the particular performer put their own individual "stamp" on it (as is the case, for example, with The Animals recording of "House of the Rising Sun"), etc. We also need sources for any and all of this. What we do not need are more names added to the "performers" section, certainly not without sources. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Relation to "The Unfortunate Rake"

Hello. I have been visiting this Wikipedia page every now and again over the past few years, and can't help but note that it is decreasingly about "St. James Infirmary," and increasingly about "The Unfortunate Rake." Since there can be little direct relationship between "St. James Infirmary" and "The Unfortunate Rake," the question of the latter's validity as a traditional song can't matter much ... at least, not in relationship to SJI. This Wikipedia article has somehow gotten off the tracks, and can't be of much use to anyone interested in the history of the song this entry is ostensibly about. Bookok (talk) 20:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I discovered a source that connects "St. James Infirmary" to the English ballad "The Unfortunate Rake," added the link and removed the "citation needed" tag. However, it is a tenous connection indeed; they are cross-referenced together in an entry on a third party ballad, and on the main ballad index page for "The Unfortunate Rake" there is no link to "St. James Infimary." It appears that the only connection is the mention of St. James Infirmary itself; the rest of the ballad is unique in every other way. The fact that we cannot trace it to before 1925 should be regarded as significant.Pinikadia 14:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)Pinikadia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinikadia (talk • contribs)

I tend to agree. "Infirmary" clearly has elements that derive from songs of "The Unfortunate Rake" lineage (or from a common ancestor), but consider the first sentence here under "Authorship & History," that "Rake" is "about a soldier who uses his money on prostitutes, and then dies of a venereal disease." "St. James Infirmary" as we have it has nothing obvious to do with soldiers or venereal disease, nor does it necessarily have anything to do with prostitutes. The only things the two songs really have in common, other than the name "St. James Infirmary," is the expression of dying wishes, which in "Infirmary" are apparently an afterthought with no connection to the opening verses. Borrowing a few lines from a traditional song, which is a very common practice in folk music, doesn't mean that the new song is "based on" the other song. So the Rake / Infirmary connection is interesting, but it's really only part of the explanation for the song's origin. 850 C (talk) 17:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello

I was interested in this discussion, but I feel I have something to add. What evidence is there that there was ever prior to 1950 a song called the unfortunate rake with the words st James infirmary. I have been looking everywhere, and even bought several books in search of this evidence, but all I can find is web site after web cite written on the basis that liner notes by a record company executive with a degree in business who is in the business of selling not just a folk record, but the whole idea of 'folk'music, as in music played on guitars by hippyish types (nothing against hippies intended). Why believe that this says?

There is a bigger problem here: the article provides one verse, a first verse, claiming that this is a 'trad' song. Plainly, it is a version sung by A L Lloyd in the 1950s 1960s. None of the 19th century versions use the words St James' anything. These first appear in the literature in Cecil Sharps 1918 field notes made when he was collecting songs in the Appalachians. If you look it up, you will see that this St James Hospital song has a) no such title as rake b) the white linen bit that seems to be USA and looks rather like Streets of Loredo.

Lloyd in an article claimed that this version was the parent of streets of Loredo, a claim that has to be based on a range of unverifiable assumptions about how old the wording St James Hospital was when Sharp collected it in 1918.

My own view, having worked back in the literature, is that the version printed in the article is misleading because it uses the title The Unfortunate Rake and the words St James, when these two were not found in combination at any point prior to Lloyd producing his own version, which is then quoted in Harwood's book, without a clear reference to a source. However, in this chapter Harwood relies heavily on Goldsteins' liner notes to an LP called The Unfortunate Rake, and Goldstein relies on two articles, both of which I have read, and neither of which comes from a peer reviewed source. One by A L Lloyd, one by Lodewick. The Lodewick one makes the mistake about Dublin and Cork which Goldstein does not realise and copies into the liner notes. Lodewick speaks about broadsides, but has admittedly never seen one, and only heard about them from unspecified sources. Lloyd has plainly seen the Such broadside by 1956 (though perhaps not in 1947 in his Keynote article) and he refers to the Such version, which a) is NOT called The Unfortunate Rake and b) does not have the words St James anything in. He also knows about the Appalachian song. He knows about My Jewel My Joy. He likes its tune, and pretends it is similar to some used in the USA, which he has had written out so we can play them and realise he is seeing similarities where none exist if we are musical.

I believe that Lloyd himself wrote the version called traditional and cited in the article. I believe he took the hospital both from the blues and from the Appalachian, having made an explicit link between these in his article. He takes the words about mercury from the Such broadsheet. Having decided (in the article) that the speaker wants to die with bravado, he alters the muffle your drums to play them loudly, again fitting with the jazz song, and adds his own touch in 'bright muskets', which would have been archaic in the 19th century. In the 19th century version we get rifles or guns. This is a theory; in the wiki article we should stick to facts.

So the reason I think you two are puzzled may be that you are trying to make sense out of a myth that grew up in the 20th century, and not asking who says often enough.

Thank you for reading: I hope I have made sense. Kate Mash 16:55, 5 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash (talk • contribs)

See above under Structural Comments. I think it's time this digression either be deleted altogether, or moved to the Wikipedia article about The Unfortunate Rake. Please LMK what you think. Sprucegrouse (talk) 11:54, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I posted this on an "Edit warring" board

Here is my post and a reply.

A happening at St. James Infirmary Blues‎

I am very close to being in a edit war with User: TheOldJacobite concerning the St. James Infirmary Blues‎ article. I posted that the song was used in a certain movie, s/he removed it as being not notable. I disagreed and would have discussed it with him (seems more like a guy than not) on his talk page, but seemed to be blocked from doing so. I reposted the section, adding a reference from IMDB that had the song in the movie. He undid that. It seems to me that being on a movie soundtrack is notable enough to be listed in the “also ran” section of the article, but me posting again and he removing again gets us to three reverts and who wants that? So here I am, what happens next? Is this the right page to post this? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

l'd open a discussion on the talk page of the article. User:amaliel (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Consider it done. Carptrash (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

So there you have it. It would be great if we could get a 2nd, 3rd 4th etc. opinion here & save both the Old Jacobite and me a lot of trouble. Carptrash (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• You should note that IMDB is not a reliable source, you should try to find a better source that details the use of the song in the film. I searched Google News archive and Google Books and found nothing, but did not perform an exhaustive search. Good luck. J04n(talk page) 16:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  Okay, Here [[3]] is another source. This is what you asked for, now what is your opinion about keeping it? Carptrash (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• I am not convinced the appearance of a song in a film is generally notable. There are exceptions, Moon River in Breakfast at Tiffany's is an obvious example when the film should be noted in the song article. One song of 20 in a film can hardly be considered notable. I'd leave the film out. --Richhoncho (talk) 17:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  So would suggest that this section be removed too?
  

  "Cab Calloway can be seen singing it and dancing a slide dance in the Betty Boop cartoon Snow White. His performance was filmed, then transferred using rotoscoping. The Bing Crosby musical Birth of the Blues featured the song in 1941."
  

  PS in the movie Double Jeopardy the band is actually seen playing the song, it is not just background music. Carptrash (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

No, because those films, those performances, and those performers all are notable. In the case of the example you have added, none of this is true. The mere fact that the film takes place in New Orleans indicates that music is going to be heard and musicians seen, but that does not convey automatic significance. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 19:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Carptrash, I see that, despite the comments above, you reinserted this information, but still have not provided a source that proves notability. Despite Gamaliel's lame comment below, you actually do have to prove notability. It is not enough to prove that the song was used in that movie, as Richhoncho said above, you have to show that this use was notable. You have not done so. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 03:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There's a large paragraph featuring covers with about 39 musicians listed, with no sources offered to demonstrate notability. If anything, there's now more demonstrated notability about this particular use of the song then most of the material in that section. Gamaliel (talk) 05:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

That argument proves nothing. That other content in that section needs to be sourced is a problem we should address. But, that says nothing about this particular example, which is not notable. All those sources prove is that the song was used in the movie. So what? Lots of songs are used in lots of movies, and that does not make any of them notable. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 14:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

So you'll edit war to remove this sourced content and ignore the unsourced content? That makes sense. Gamaliel (talk) 17:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

You are the one who is edit-warring. The consensus above was that it should be excluded, then you came along. The argument "other shit exists" proves nothing. The references given for that particular example of the song do not prove notability, which is a policy on WP. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 17:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war. Gamaliel (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There was no edit war 'til you came along. I have repeatedly stated my reasons for deletion with policy, you have not. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 04:34, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

And I just forced you to revert me, with you kicking and screaming all the way. How dastardly of me. Gamaliel (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

That is to say, I have not proved notability to your satisfaction. Since it seems that wikipedia is created in your likeness, that is, I guess, all that matters. I'll remove this page from my watchlist. Enjoy. Carptrash (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the harm of including it since the page makes space to include dozens of covers. Certainly not a paragraph for it, but perhaps in that long list of artists. Gamaliel (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Jimmie Rodgers, Dave Van Ronk, Lily Tomlin/SNL

Given some of the contentious history behind this entry, I would like to run this by anyone who may be paying attention before attempting to edit the page itself.

1. Dave Van Ronk -- given that a redirection to the Van Ronk album St. James Infirmary appears at the top of this entry, would it not be worth mentioning his version of the song as well as his performance of it at a 1997 concert at Wolf Trap honoring Harry Smith's Anthology of Folk Music? If no one objects, I'd like to add these notable versions.

2. Lily Tomlin with Howard Shore's All Nurse SNL Band -- surely a notable performance of the song in the very first season of Saturday Night Live (this was the first time I ever heard the song and loved it ever since).

3. Jimmie Rodgers -- In the current article, there is a reference to Jorma Kaukonen doing a version of the song but mistakenly crediting it to Jimmie Rodgers. In fact, Jorma's version is based on the Jimmie Rodgers version, which is not otherwise mentioned in the article. Rodgers recorded a version of the song in 1930 and took credit for it as arranger, which was later erroneously changed by his publishing company to composer. The "arranger" was in response to litigation from Irving Mills, but Mills as copyright holder never noticed or at least never objected to the later switch to Rodgers as composer. All of this appears in Appendix C of the Robert W. Harwood book cited in a number of other places in this article. I believe the Jorma Kaukonen cover should be corrected and the Jimmie Rodgers version added.

BJ9RW (talk) 05:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC) BJ9RW

Moved from OP's user page: reliability and verifiability in parts about the Unfortunate Rake

I was interested to read the article on St James' Infirmary. However, I think there are problems with reliability and verifiability in the part relating to the Unfortunate Rake. (Edit later by Kate Mash follows) With respect, I do not think these are answered by the person who moved my post to this place.Kate Mash 11:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash

Regarding the song said to be traditional, these words seem to be taken from the 1960 Folkways LP. They are a song version sung by A L Lloyd. There are well-known issues with A L Lloyd being said to alter the words of songs to suit himself. Sometimes he admitted to doing this.

This LP has liner notes which suggest that the song as sung by Lloyd is a 19th century broadsheet/broadside version. However, it provides no direct reference to any such thing. It does provide references to an article by Lloyd on the subject, which refers to a 19th century Such Broadside. I have read this, and it does not feature the words St James Hospital, nor have any mention of laurel. Put briefly, Lloyd sings a couple of verses from the Such Broadside.

This leaves us with the problem that the comment that the song lyrics quoted in the article are 'traditional' is not verifiable. One could verifiable state that it is a version sung by Lloyd on that LP (and he sang a version with a different first verse on another LP!).

Also, liner notes themselves to do not seem to be reliable sources. They were written by Ken Goldstein, who was a record company executive/producer with a degree in business, and he relies partly on an article by Lloyd in a non-refereed general interest magazine called 'Sing'.

In the references at the foot of the article on Wiki about the Rake, it is stated that the link is evidence of an 18th century version. There are versions thought to come from that date, but this is not one of them. I have the most recent Penguin Book of English Folk songs, which gives the early version as being The Buck's Elegy, which dates maybe to the 18th century. The words are really quite different as it mentions no hospital at all.

The link I questioned is on the wiki page about the Unfortunate Rake, and leads to a page copied from the liner notes of the Folkways LP without attribution, including the song lyrics, and also they do say 19th century, not 18th century. And there is no hint as to who compiled the page.

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/Unfortunate_Rake.htm

Is this page a reliable source? I can't see that it meets Wiki guidelines. It's all taken from the Folkways LP liner notes in any case, with no attribution. Even the comments are word for word from the liner notes.

Kate Mash (talk) 11:25, 30 October 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash

Thank you for reading.

@Kate Mash: Moved your question here. Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 06:08, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

The lyrics in question are described as "traditional" in Harwood's book, and Harwood seems to be well aware of musicians' tendencies to modify traditional songs to create "personalized" versions. I see no reason to doubt Harwood's account. This website linking St. James Infirmary Blues to the London workhouse is by Peter Higginbotham, who happens to be the author of multiple works on workhouses and related topics published with reputable publishers. That seems to fall under the "expert writing on the area of his expertise" clause of WP:SELFPUBLISH, making it an acceptable enough source. The article on The Unfortunate Rake cites a British book on folk music for that song's 18th-century origin; if necessary we can add that source to this article as well.

Kate Mash, to me it also seems that the one who added the A L Loyd "Sing" reference which you describe as probably not reliable was yourself. Huh? Why add it just to then discredit it? Huon (talk) 08:54, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello, Huon, and thank you for your comment. Regarding the link description under the article, it says 18th century, but the information in the link says 19th century. Therefore, I think the description misleads about the information in the link. Also, these words and the comment in that article are word for word from the liner notes for the Folkways LP. And they do not acknowledge this, which seems to make it a dubious link anyway.

I am fully aware of Bob Harwood's excellent work, and have exchanged ideas with him via email. I believe his book also comments on how difficult it is to tell truth from fiction when dealing with A L Lloyd. You are right that Harwood gives the song as 'traditional', but plainly he took these specific words from the Folkways LP, which means they came from A L Lloyd. In a very general sense, the song is traditional, but Lloyd and the LP liner notes claim that this version is from a 19th century broadside, Lloyd in the Sing article to which the liner notes refer the reader, claims that is is a song published by Such. It is not. There is no mention of St James anything on any Such broadsheet.

http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/static/images/sheets/10000/06656.gif

The Liner notes give a reference to the Sing article, which is evidence for what Lloyd said about the song, including what he said about the tune he chose. I think Harwood would agree that the idea that the words St James come from Britain is an inference based on their appearance in the USA, and not a fact that has been demonstrated by contemporary evidence. It is because the piece as written appears to claim that the words St James were tradition in 19th century England, when there is no evidence in any of the sources cited by Harwood, or Goldstein that this is the fact.

With respect, one reason for modifying the article is to keep the 'facts' stated or implied to those which can be verified, and also, if anybody in the whole world can provide direct evidence that the words St James appeared in 19th century British versions of this song, then they could add this evidence to the article. I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but as the article seems to suggest that this is a fact when it is not verifiable then there are issues of reliability and verifiability. Without meaning any respect to Harwood, the fact that he says something without providing any evidence to support it, does not mean that it is true. In fact, it was after reading Harwood's book that I traced back all the references and found .... a blank in terms of primary sources, and a lot of dubious information directly traceable to Goldstein's self published work. Also without disrespect to Harwood, I think this is self-published in effect too, and as such not counting as a reliable source according to Wiki, though Harwood is clearly an expert on many aspects of the song, but he does not go back into the British versions or folklore essays very far as this is not his main area of interest. I was myself mislead by Wiki articles on the topic, and much of the misinformation, or information without verification appears to be traceable back to Lloyd and Goldstein!

Thank you for reading Kate Mash (talk) 09:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash Slight edit Kate Mash 12:00, 11 November 2017 (UTC) Kate Mash

Apparent Lack of Evidence to Support Assertions Made in Article. Can anybody provide this?

Having read Bob Harwood's excellent book, I have been tracing back references, starting with those on the Folkways Liner Notes. I am hoping to have some informed discussion with a view to sharpening up this entry, especially as it misled me when I was in my early stages of work on this topic!

1 There is absolutely no evidence that the words 'St James' Hospital' (or infirmary) were used in the British Isles prior to the visit of Cecil Sharp to the Appalachians. By evidence I mean either a) a broadsheet containing those words or b) a song collected with those words. Therefore, this whole business of trying to work out where the original hospital was is futile. It is also based on an unstated and unexamined belief that the song must refer to a real place, when it might just as well refer to a made-up place. I am aware that there is a whole tradition of people saying, often in journals with credible sounding names (but, not apparently academic standards in terms of evidence), that there was such a song in the British Isles. I have spent months tracing back references and it all comes down to nothing. One person cites as an authority another person who provided no evidence, who cites as an authority another person who provided no evidence .... The broadsheet versions use 'Lock hospital', a generic term dating from 17something or other, and which, according to my 20 volume Oxford Dictionary was never used to mean leprosy hospital. The single word term 'The Lock' referred to a specific hospital in Southward which did treat Lepers and isolate them presumably under lock and key if need be? Lock hospitals were places where women could be imprisoned and treated by force under notorious 19th century laws. There was a programme of building them in the late 19th century because of concerns about military personal having VD and taking time off with it. The lock hospitals and the laws related only to specific garrison towns.

2. Just as significantly, I have found no evidence of a song called The Unfortunate Rake being sung in the British Isles. Broadsheet after broadsheet has the title The Unfortunate Lad. I think this must be an American version, but again, the sources provide no evidence. Surely if such a thing existed, somebody would know where it was. You can search various online web sites without finding it, though you can find a tune of the same name, which seems to be unrelated. All kinds of cultural artefacts related to 'rakes' at one time. Pictures, etc.

3 The belief that English versions were called St James Hospital arises from Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles' visit to the USA. That is where they found a lady in Dewey singing a song about St James Hospital. When Karpeles got back, she was involved with the English Folk Song Society/English Folk Dance and Song Society and used the heading St James Hospital above two versions neither of which made reference to such a hospital. I think this may have been used as evidence that the songs had that name, but it is plain that this is not the case. Having read Mackenzie's article about a Nova Scotia version, she also cites that. The title makes the links. So one version in Dewey, one in Nova Scotia, but no evidence whatsoever that those words were sung in England. If there is such direct evidence it would be nice to know what it is and where it is! If the belief that it was sung is just an inference drawn from the data, then perhaps the article should say so.

4 The belief that they were also comes from a Folkways LP on which A L Lloyd sang a song he called 'The Unfortunate Rake' and which he begins with St James Hospital. In an article referenced in the liner notes he refers to a Such Broadside. There are two such broadsides. Neither is called The Unfortunate Rake: both are called The Unfortunate Lad. Both refer to a Lock hospital, not St James. Neither refer to laurel. More clarity might be available from the notes to the first LP this song was issued on. These are online but not legible, however he does admit to having changed some of the words to the songs. Internet site after site one finds Lloyd's words quoted as 'gospel' in terms of the version sung in the 19th century, and at the end of the day, there is no evidence that it was, and moreover, Lloyd is notoriously unreliable and lax about providing references/sources/the whole truth.

5 Goldstein claims Lloyd is singing a broadsheet version, and cites Lloyd's Sing article. Whether Lloyd ever directly told Goldstein it was a broadsheet version, or whether Goldstein jumped to that conclusion, who knows? But who would believe what it says in liner notes? In terms of semiotics, the whole thing is clearly designed visually to give an appearance of authenticity: that is what Goldstein's business was after all. This is what he was selling, having imbibed the 'folkloric paradigm' which has done so much to make us see 20th century US music through blinkers, or racially skin-coloured spectacles if you like, as evidenced by Lloyd's odd statement that St James is not a 'true' Negro song. What would such a think look like? The whole idea is a) distasteful b) bonkers. Now I am ranting, but my point is that wiki is supposed to present facts, and it would appear that this article may be presenting a myth created by folklorists on both sides of the Atlantic, many of whom were selling products (including Lloyd who was selling his and Edwards' version).

6 On the title 'The Unfortunate Rake': this appears in the literature in an early EFSS article, where it is noted as a tune for which no words are known, and the author guesses that perhaps the words might be those for The Unfortunate Lad'. None of the early versions that I have seen use this title, though it is taken up by the folklorists, including Lodewick and Lloyd as well as Harwood.

Kate Mash (talk) 11:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash

Different Parent Songs for Lyrics and Music

Lyrically, I can see how the song may have been influenced to a degree by the Unfortunate Rake. Musically, the tune is quite different. It's entirely possible someone heard the tune, liked it, and put words to it in the tradition of the Rake, meaning that this article's namesake is actually a fusion of two otherwise unrelated works of music. The tune is very similar to a a small section of "Charleston Cabin," though drawn out into a full song with tragic lyrics added in St. James Infirmary Blues. 73.215.211.84 (talk) 14:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Citation Needed tag

Hello There are some citation needed tags in places where it seems to me that the source is clear in the text. These tags are added to quotations from Bert Lloyd articles. Maybe I didn't make it clear which quotation is from which article. I'll check. Tjaml upi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash (talk • contribs) 14:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

"The Dying Cowboy" --> "The Cowboy's Lament"?

Current text:

'Lloyd claims that a song collected by Cecil Sharp in the Appalachians in 1918 which contains the words "St James Hospital" is the parent song and that it looks like an elder relative of "The Dying Cowboy".'

The lyrics quoted in support don't resemble "The Dying Cowboy", aka "Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie", so much as "The Cowboy's Lament", aka "Streets of Laredo". Somebody who knows care to correct this? — Wegesrand (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Exclusion of the Storyteller and Alternate Version

According to LyricFind, including "corner of the square" in a St. James infirmary lyric search, accessed through google 2021 Sep. 5, Ramblin' Jack Elliott started the song with two introductory stanzas that made the singer a storyteller relating a story:

It was down in Old Joe's barroom,

On the corner by the square,

The usual crowd was assembled

And big Joe McKinney was there.

He was standing at my shoulder.

His eyes were bloodshot red;

He turned to the crowd around him,

These are the very words he said:

[then starts, "I went down to St. James infirmary..."]

I think this story-within-a-story version is wonderful, interesting, and at least relevant enough to include in the page.

I believe I did a lyrics search on Google a few years ago and the predominant hit included the story-within-a-story intro. As of Sep. 2021, this is no longer the case. I am certainly concerned that Wikipedia's omission of these introductory stanzas may be distorting the history of the song or at least making it more difficult to follow. I assert this further argues for its inclusion. Thank you for your consideration. ThePirateCaptain (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Lyrics- Unfortunately I don't have a source, just a memory of 60 years ago

Louis Armstrong lyrics [more or less] plus a last verse viz.

When I die, give me 6 crap shooting pall bearers, and a chorus girl to sing me a song and if anyone should ask you who goes there tell em I died from the St James infirmary blues… Luberan (talk) 08:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

St. James Infirmary Book

I want to update the links to reference this book, as the links from the blog are now dead

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Letters_from_New_Orleans/FHiiDuAg0bIC?hl=en&gbpv=0 Tovedetered (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)