Talk:Edgar Ætheling

Miscellaneous

Does dna exist that could prove if someone was decended from Edgar Atheling? Does Edward the Confessor's tomb still contain his remains? I know an anglo-saxon princess was recently discovered in Germany a couple years back. Any ideas?

---

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeherd99 (talk • contribs) 07:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have been doing some geneological research and have come across an interesting article in the London Daily Telegragh dated weds, september 2, 1896, page 5, column 2. The article was concerning a gentleman by the name of George Outlaw who had died in South Australia, and whom was believed to be a descendant of King Edgar Atheling. I carry the Outlaw name and I was curious if it might be possible that I might be a distant descendant of King Atheling. If there is anyone out there that could help me?

This old Telegraph article is probably full to the brim with optimistic and journalistic surmise; the Telegraph (even in those days) is one of the more culpable manipulators of exactitude. There were plenty of outlaws in Anglo-Saxon history (and later) other than Edgar Atheling. The most famous Outlaw of the lot was of course not Ned Kelly (despite Mick Jagger's depiction of him!) but Robin Hood, and given the fact that Australia was a penal colony this probably had more to do with the origins of George Outlaw's surname than any tenuous link to Edgar Atheling. I also found this link which may help you in your inquiries: http://www.mygen.com/users/outlaw/Outlaw%20Geneology.htm

Have a cool yule. user:sjc

The article states that Edgar Atheling never married and that he presumably didn't have children. His sister Margaret married Malcolm III of Scotland, so George Outlaw probably isn't a descendant of Edgar Atheling, unless there is some unrecorded affair with him and someone else, then George Outlaw may be decended through an illegitimate line.

---

For whatever it's worth, I just changed an anonymously created article Aetheling into a ridirect to this article. Its entire content was: "Aetheling, Edgar: Anglo-Saxon Prince of England who lost his throne to William the Conq. Later participated in the Crusades. Nowadays, a self-produced EP by the band Mardukh from Berlin, circling around a man assuring his girl he'd forget his fight for "the throne" (whichever) for one night." If anyone thinks the "self-produced EP" merits mention at the bottom of the article, feel free to add it. -- Jmabel 06:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Removed redirect and expanded article on aetheling. Ostrich 18:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It's doubtful that people with the name 'outlaw' are descended from Edgar (not impossible!) but there have been so many Outlaws throughout history to claim specific descent through Edgar is not really credible (though as said before it is minutely plausible). Aria elwenaria_elwen

Eadgar II

Who calls him Eadgar II? If we're just trying to indicate the Anglo-Saxon spelling of his name (Eadgar), I'm fine with that, but there is a valid historical precedent for including the Roman numeral? Binabik80 19:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree - by convention Roman numerals aren't used for Anglo-Saxon kings. Ostrich 11:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not quite as clear-cut as that. They aren't used when there's a good alternative, they appear very rarely in the actual text of reliable sources (indexes are not created by authors and need to disambiguate where the text does not), but they do appear sometimes. There's no excuse for nonsense like Edmund II of England though; who's he ? Now Edmund Ironside, him I've heard of. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, only a few numerals would be used - Edmund I of England, Ethelred I of England, Harold II of England. But in most cases there's a better alternative. Edmund II of England is an abomination. john k 16:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

From the edit history, Numerals are not usually used for English Kings before William the Conqueror, they are usually known by their cognomen --PBS (talk) 12:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Margaret sister of Malcolm

I added a fact tag for him marrying a sister of Malcolm. According to Todd Farmeric on gen-med, "I know of no source which provide's any origin for Edgar's wife." So if whomever stated that he married a sister of Malcolm could post a citation that would be great. I've leave that statement up for a week, and then delete it, if there is no WP:RS. Thanks. Wjhonson 04:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Being bold, I removed it. Why wait a week ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this before in the article concerning the geneology of the Scottish kings, Edgar is included there married to Margaret. There is also someone (I forget where not the Australian one) claiming descent through a 'daughter' of Edgar the name began with M. but this person also claimed Agatha to be British so how much store one can put in that particular persons claims is under suspicion. Still it is intriguing. Aria elwen 00:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)aria_elwen

Ancestry

Do we really need a full pedigree just to demonstrate that nothing is known but his male line and their wives? Agricolae (talk) 23:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

No, not really. The only ones of his female ancestors about whom much can be said are Ælfthryth and Agatha, and Agatha's ancestry is a matter of debate. But this was disputed already and it ended up being restored. Please, be bold and remove it again. Perhaps it will stick? Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I have an idea to add his ancestry:

Ancestors of Edgar Ætheling (c. 1052–1125 or after)
16. Edgar the Peaceful 8. Æthelred II the Unready 17. Ælfthryth 4. Edmund II Ironside 18. Thored/Æthelbert 9. Ælfgifu of York 2. Edward the Exile 10. Ælfthryth? 5. Ealdgyth 1. Edgar Ætheling 3. Agatha

Sources:

• Bernard Burke, Ashworth P. Burke. A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the Privy Council, Knightage, and Companionage. 1934
• Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, William Ryland Beall, Kaleen E. Beall. Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before 1700: Lineages from Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Other Historical Individuals 2008. ISBN 0806317523, ISBN 9780806317526

Additional source:

• Foundation of medieval genealogy: England, anglo-saxon & danish kings https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20&%20Danish%20Kings.htm

(talk) 01:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

As already indicated by the earlier discussion, it's excessive. FMG and Genealogics are not Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Gerald Longstride

There are several references online to an alleged possible son of Edgar's conceived in Constantinople with a cousin of Emperor Alexius I. This son was called, supposedly, Gerald Longstride. However, I cannot find the original source of this alleged son. Can people help? James Frankcom (talk) 10:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That probably never happened. His involvement with the First Crusade is certainly incorrect, at least; I forget where it comes from, possibly Runciman's imagination. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Atheling - Meaning of word

There should be a link here to the Wiki page 'Atheling' which explains the meaning of the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.15.79 (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Elected as king?

The present article says

Following Harold's death at the Battle of Hastings against the invading Normans in October, the Witenagemot assembled in London and elected Edgar king.

However, this isn't sourced. Are there any reliable sources that support this statement, please?

The Parson's Cat (talk) 15:30, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm sure the citation to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle was meant to cover this information, but I've added a citation to Douglas' biography of William the Conqueror. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Naming

Just today this article has been renamed from Edgar the Ætheling to Edgar Ætheling. I don't see any discussion about this. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:14, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

I'd have to do a survey, but the ODNB does call him "Edgar Ætheling". but the Handbook of British Chronology calls him "Edgar II the Ætheling" so it's clear there probably is some disagreement. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:06, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Barlow's Edward the Confessor - it's "Edgar, the Aetheling" in the index, with varying references in the text (sometimes with the title, mostly without). Walker's Harold it's "Edgar, Atheling" in the index, but again, the text varies. Rex's Harold II it's "Edgar the Aetheling" in the index, and varies in the text. (Usually just "Edgar"). Douglas' William the Conqueror is "Edgar the aetheling" in the index. Bates' William the Conqueror its "Edgar the Ætheling" in the index. Hagger's William King and Conqueror its "Edgar Ætheling" in the index. Barlow's William Rufus its "Edgar Ætheling" in the index. Mason's William II its "Edgar Ætheling" in the index. Green's Henry I it's "Edgar Ætheling" in the index. Hollister's Henry I it's "Edgar the Ætheling" in the index. More to come. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:35, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Huscroft's Norman Conquest it's "Edgar atheling" in the index. Loyn's Anglo-Saxon England and the Norman Conquest it's "Edgar, Aetheling" in the index. Rex's English Resistance it's "Edgar the Aetheling" in the index. Fleming's Kings & Lords in Conquest England its "Edgar the Ætheling" in the index. Barlow's The Godwins is "Edgar Atheling" in the index. Green's Aristocracy of Norman England it's "Edgar Aetheling" in the index. Stafford's Unification and Conquest it is "Edgar the Ætheling" in the index. Clanchy's England and its Rulers its "Edgar the Atheling" in the index. Barnett's England Under the Norman and Angevin Kings its "Edgar Atheling" in the index. Huscroft's Ruling England has "Edgar atheling" in the index. Carpenter's Struggle for Mastery has "Edgar Atheling" in the index. Mason's House of Godwine has "Edgar ætheling" in the index. Chibnall's Anglo-Norman England has "Edgar Atheling" in the index. Barlow's Feudal England (4th ed.) has "Edgar Aetheling" in the index. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:51, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Cultural Depictions

While for some rulers of England this might overwhelm the article in this case Cultural depictions of Edgar the Ætheling could be merged quite satisfactorily onto this page. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. The cultural depictions article is likely to be expanded in the future as people add more novels etc. More importantly, the article about Edgar Ætheling should be on the historical character and based on reliable sources. If they are merged, it is a constant battle to keep unsourced trivia out of the main article. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:32, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. See no reason to make an exception for style just because there are fewer examples, personally. OGBC1992 (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Edgar Ætheling birth Date

I heard Edgar Ætheling was 13 years old upon being King! Jimmyy68 (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Kings not elected

The Witan did not elect Kings. They confirmed them. Why has my edit been reversed?2A00:23C4:B607:CF00:6C44:A655:376B:EC30 (talk) 15:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Alfred the Great became king even though his elder brother's sons had a better hereditary right. Kings were chosen by the Witan. See for example Charter 123 of Æthelred the Unready in Whitelock's English Historical Documents: "all the leading men of both orders unanimously chose my brother Edward to guide the government of the kingdom". Dudley Miles (talk) 15:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Not only did the witan give, it could also take away. See ASC 757 for example, where Siegebert of Wessex was deposed, by the witan due to his "..unjust acts"!!. Wilfridselsey (talk)

Earl of Oxford?

It is claimed in the article on the Earl of Oxford that Edgar held the title from 1066 to 1068, but there's no mention of it in this article. Is there any reliable evidence to support that he ever held this earldom? 2A00:23C6:4182:9500:3988:C250:5AD1:4A9F (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

It is not mentioned in the Dictionary of National Biography article about Edgar and is very unlikely. I have deleted it in the Earl of Oxford article. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Was he king?

Should we describe him as king rather than pretender? The argument could be that he was never crowned, but this is also true of Edward V and Edward VIII, undoubtedly kings, and Lady Jane Grey, who we currently have in the "Queens regnant" category. His reign was a short one, from October to December, but longer than the nine days' queen, and not much shorter than Edward V, who only lasted two and a half months. PatGallacher (talk) 17:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Also Sweyn Forkbeard and the Empress Matilda, short-ruling de facto monarchs who were never crowned, are categorised as English monarchs. PatGallacher (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I have checked the source for the statement that Edgar was elected king and it just says that some leaders considered recognising him as king. I have edited accordingly. The evidence is that he is correctly described as a pretender. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

One source for the article describes Edgar's supporters as holding London Bridge against William when he advanced on London, suggesting that he was regarded as king in the capital. However it might be worth looking into this further. PatGallacher (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

End of "Reign"

the regular wikipedia page has the "reign" for Edgar The AEtheling(Edgar II) as "After 14 October – early December 1066". However the simple English wikipedia page has the "reign" as "15 October – 10 December 1066". Did something significant happen on December 10, 1066? How certain are we that his unofficial reign end on December 10, 1066? It seems to me that either both pages should say "early December" as the end of his reign or both should say "December 10". Additionally why does one say the "reign" began "After 14 October" and the other say "15 October"? Either we know it began on October 15, 1066 or we only know that it began sometime after October 14, both pages should say the same thing. Warblerab295 (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)