Talk:Limburgish

Edits by ‎93.221.40.167

I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:

"Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"

• Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30  1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:

• ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].

• That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.

• Bergish is variously defined, see
  Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437

• p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"

• I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.

• p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).

• p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".

• Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:

• Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877

• • p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"

• • p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).

• Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

</ref> Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:. Compare also:

• LVR-Institut für Landeskunde und Regionalgeschichte (ed.). "Dialekte im Rheinland". Retrieved 21 July 2023.

Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:

• ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)

• Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)

• Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)

• westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)

• • Tongerländisch (Tongeren)

• • Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)

• Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)

• südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)

• • Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)

• • Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

South Low Franconian

Just a heads-up for watchers of this page: I've created the article South Low Franconian which covers the West Germanic dialect group spoken (or in some areas, once spoken) in three countries. I've strictly focussed on its linguistic features as presented in sources from Belgian, Dutch and German scholars and left ample room for debated views (which btw do not depend on the nationality of the author, as this article (Limburgish) incorrectly states in multiple places).

Since the scope of this article largely overlaps with the Belgian and Dutch area of South Low Franconian, there are quite a few redundacies in the new article, many of which can be resolved if material pertaining to SLF varieties in Germany is trimmed or removed here (most of which is unsourced anyway). Other details are maybe best discussed here as is (like aspects that mostly relevant to the situation in Belgium and the Netherlands, especially the language-political dimension), while others (e.g. linguistic features common to the entire area, or at least are distributed over the Limburgs and German Rhineland) are better covered there. Austronesier (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for creating South Low Franconian, I think it will prove to be most helpful in the future clean up of this article. Vlaemink (talk) 12:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Concerning the rewriting of the orthography section; / Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects

Two days ago, I removed much of the orthography section from this article [1] and used what was there to create a new article Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects. This is standard Wikipedia practice for cleaning up overly long and confusing (and/or self contradictory) articles, such as this one.

The dialects referred to as Limburgish in this article have no standardized orthography and multiple authors stress this. In fact, even the dialect association Veldeke Limburg, which created the 2003 spelling which was present in this article, explicitly states this. The new orthography section explains this clearly and refers to the previously present orthography in both the text and a see further-template beneath the heading. While no information was removed, what was removed were the various links to the website www.limburgsedialecten.nl, not just because this is a unreliable and unscientific source, but also because the website in question is no longer online. The same goes for the website www.limburgsespelling.nl.

So to respond to a recent revert of this edit, in which it was falsely and suggestively claimed that the previous "section" (two sentences, red.) was "dramatically rewritten" and that "well sourced" material was removed; [2]: neither is the case. No substantial information was removed and the previous iteration of the orthography section was not well sourced but is now.

This article is a mess and has been across at least three major Wikipedias since its creation. I am very grateful to @Austronesier for recently creating the South Low Franconian article, which hopefully can turn this article in less of a chimæra in the future. As for @De Wikischim, a user who has been blocked more than 45 times on the Dutch Wikipedia, is subjected to several arbcom restrictions on his edits and who has displayed a severe lack of NPOV concerning this subject as well as personal animosity, if not vendetta-like behavior on the Dutch Wikipedia towards those who challenge his personal POV; I'd like to make the following abundantly clear: this is the English-language Wikipedia, where WP:SOURCE is held in high regard and articles are not easily hijacked from further editing by poisoning the talk page or engaging in edit wars. You are hereby asked to take this into serious account and remain from any further nonconstructive if not obstructive editing. Vlaemink (talk) 10:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: There is no need to have the same information about something in full in two places. That's what hatnotes to related articles are for. If a main article exists for the subtopic, a short summary is sufficient.

That said, @Vlaemink: is it really necessary to split out a section into an undersourced article (as of now, it has been tagged as such) when this main article is far from hitting the suggested maximal length of 100k? We have dozens of articles that contain sections about "non-official and non-standardized advisory spelling[s]". SIL has devised hundreds of practical orthographies that rarely become official due to repressive or non-affirmative minority language-policies in most countries on this planet. And when these spellings are in practical use, there is no harm to present them. When they are not fully accepted by the speaker community, we can say exactly that. As long as size issues do not arise, information about the spelling of a linguistic variety (regardless of its status as "language", "regional language" or "dialect") is best kept in the main article as an essential piece of information. And obivously, mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article is not WP:UNDUE, especially when you believe it is notable enough to get a standalone article. Austronesier (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: The article has been tagged as undersourced, because relies on a single source (as btw, did the material when it was still part of this article). Practically speaking, this is not a huge problem though as the article is basically a technical one describing a spelling system and the single source is the actual publication of this spelling system, i.e. there's not a lot that can go wrong in that respect. Nevertheless I'm in full agreement that more independent sources should be added to this article, for example focusing on the spellings actual usage, and I intend to do so in the near future.

As for the reasons for excising it from this article. First and foremost, it's because the emphases in the literature concerning orthography is that none of these varieties are standardized, which makes it odd to have an orthography section of which 95+ % concerns a strictly codified orthography. This unnecessarily distracts from the practical reality, which is that the spelling involved has no official status and is hardly used by any of the speakers of these dialects. However I do not at all oppose mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article, which is why I explicitly mention both the dialect association and the spelling it developed in the rewrite of the section ([3]), however I do not think the entire orthographic system should be placed in this article; but should instead have its own article, as many other spelling systems and spelling reforms do.

Placing the edit in a broader picture: this article is in dire need of being more concise, less self contradictory and far better sourced, if not being sourced at all. Its biggest problem has always been that it has consistently failed to meet the most basic of article conditions: to clearly define what it's about. As a consequence the article has been been growing and growing, aimlessly and mostly unsourced, for over a decade. In order to fix that, the article needs to get back to the basics and needs to be 'pruned'. Not necessarily in the gardening sense of the word, where material is removed, but at the very least by restructuring this article. Keeping the orthography section "general", while providing links to variously more detailed/specialized articles forms a logical part of that. Vlaemink (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I just explained here in the edit summary my reasons for undoing Vlaemink's rewritten version of the section "Orthograhpy".

@Austronesier: Actually this already has a long history, which indeed once began on the Dutch Wikipedia. Every few years, the vision "Linguistically seen, Limburgish is merely a subset of Dutch dialects" is introduced again (at least, attempts to do so are made). However, among the greater part of linguists/dialectologists, this vision has since long been abandoned. This happened first especially on the article nl:Limburgs and more recently here too, especially since last year.

De Wikischim (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

(Striking out moot comment after the removal of parts of the preceding comment) Please refrain from bringing off-enWP drama here. We simply don't care about it here. Stick to the topic and tTell us why you want to have these tables in two places instead of one. I have explained why I think it better placed here, but anything is better than what you are currently producing. –Austronesier (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

For me, this mainly concerns the text above the tables, not especially the tables themselves. The old text (which I just restored again) was both well-sourced and more in line with the rest of the article compared to Vl.'s new version of the section. So I think at least that part of the old section should be kept. The tables below the text (from "Alphabet") are again another separate issue. De Wikischim (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Apart from the issues I already mentioned above, the older version I just restored contains some essential information parts (such as the use of the spelling on websites and in dictionaries) which were absent in the re-written version which only mentioned the use of the spelling on place name signs. For the rest, Vlaemink's new version focused almost exclusively on the non-official status of the Veldeke spelling, thus creating disbalance. De Wikischim (talk) 09:15, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You're close to or already at 3RR now. Just stop. Both. –Austronesier (talk) 09:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point, we approach the farcical, below is previous text to be found under the orthography section:

Limburgish has many varieties hence there isn't a standard written form. However the Limburgish Language Council Veldeke Limburg has adopted a standard orthography for Limburgish since 2003, representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs and it is used in its websites as well as dictionaries. This is the form presented below.

And this is the revised / current one:

There is no standardized form of the Limburgian dialects, nor is there an official standard spelling for the individual Limburgian dialects. The dialect association Veldeke Limburg developed an advisory spelling in 2003, aimed at uniformly representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs.

To claim, that you are opposed to the revised version because of substantive differences between this version and the previous iteration is beyond ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 09:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

See above, where I already explained more or less in detail the flagrant differences between the two versions, as an objection to replacing the old version fully with your new one (even though some of its elements could maybe be integrated).

And again, I urge you to finally stop your constant ridiculing/defamation of my edits here and elsewhere - this is really beginning to get annoying, and looks a lot like disruptive behaviour from your side. De Wikischim (talk) 10:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

What about this:

There is no standardized form of Limburgish, nor is there an official standard spelling for the individual Limburgish dialects. The dialect association Veldeke Limburg developed an advisory spelling in 2003 that is endorsed by the Limburgish Language Council and aims at uniformly representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs.

1. "The Limburgish Language Council Veldeke Limburg" is wrong; these are two different entities. The orthography was devised by Veldeke Limburg, and is endorsed by the Raod veur't Limburgs. 2. The first sentence talks about the non-existence of a standard form, so it's a statement about Limburgish in toto. 3. We should use "Limburgish dialects" for consistency; "Limburgian dialects" is prefectly good and in fact better English, but the title of this article is Limburgish, and "Limburgish" has become the common name for it in English, even though it sill sounds very much like Dunglish.

FWIW, the pettiness of this discussion ("flagrant differences", seriously?) in the face of massive issues of the article in many other places gives the impression of turning this article into WP:BATTLEGROUND. –Austronesier (talk) 10:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Though this seems slightly better, the use of the spelling in dictionaries and on the association's own websites is still left out, while these are important elements in the context. De Wikischim (talk) 10:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We can have use of the spelling in dictionaries too, with an independent secondary source. Use in the association's own websites looks like a trivial corollary. You would only mention it when you're desperate to show that it is used at all. But things look fair better for the Spelling 2003, don't they. –Austronesier (talk) 10:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

In my rewrite I left out the previously mentioned dictionaries because this was "sourced" 1) by an unreliable website, and 2) because this website didn't speak of an actual published dictionary, but rather spoke about a "dictionary app" which was "to be developed". Of course mentioning of certain dictionaries using this spelling can be added, provided the sourcing is valid and reliable — which is not the case at present.

On a different note, I think it's utterly ridiculous that "my" version was claimed by De Wikischim to contain "flagrant differences" with the old version and is subjected to ridiculous edit warring, whereas Austronesiers version (which only differs from mine in mentioning the Raad voor het Limburgs) is suddenly very much acceptable. That's beyond childish, and, frankly, shameful. It's nothing more than WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND and you should immediately stop with such completely nonsensical behavior.Vlaemink (talk) 11:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No, not "very much acceptable", but just "slightly better". I'm still heart-broken over that verdict. ;) –Austronesier (talk) 11:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Touché ;), but you know what I meant. Suddenly, it's "slightly better" and open to discussion, whereas the previous "flagrantly different" version, was subjected to an edit war. Why the previous edit war? Why not simply add the language counsil and look for a source on a dictionary. That's what I find ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 11:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

[...] whereas Austronesiers version (which only differs from mine in mentioning the Raad voor het Limburgs) › incorrect, there are more differences (for example the use of "Limburgish" in the first sentence vs. "Limburgian dialects" in the previous alternate version, which is a significant difference). Again, a distorted view of the actual situation. De Wikischim (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Please, do explain why using "Limburgish dialects" instead of "Limburgish" is a "significant" difference. Vlaemink (talk) 12:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I see no need at all to explain things which are already as clear as daylight to everyone (or, at least, should be so). De Wikischim (talk) 12:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to insist. Why is it of such paramount importance to you, that "Limburgish" is used instead of "Limburgish dialects", where is the "significance" in this? Vlaemink (talk) 12:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

See what I already wrote somewhere above: [...] "Linguistically seen, Limburgish is merely a subset of Dutch dialects" [...] However, among the greater part of linguists/dialectologists, this vision has since long been abandoned..

Put somewhat differently: it's the basic difference in the linguistic senses of the two terms "dialect" vs. "language" here. At this place, it is better to avoid the somewhat confusing/misleading and/or ambiguous term "dialects" (the term can still be used elsewhere in this article wherever needed/appropriate), since the proposed Veldeke spelling was aimed at providing a uniform writing standard for the mutually diverse dialects which altogether make up "Limburgish" as a recognized language. De Wikischim (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Talking about "Limburgish dialects" does not imply denial of Limburgish as being anything but "a subset of Dutch dialects". That'a fallacy. Obviously, Limburgish is not a uniform variety, but comprises multiple dialects (like every language in the world with more than 1000 speakers and spoken in more than 3 villages). It's not healty to get triggered over the word "dialect" for no reason at all (unless somebody wants to write "Limburgish is a dialect of Dutch" – but nobody does; it's a strawman). It is more a matter of accuracy to talk about a "standardized form of Limburgish" instead of "standardized form of Limburgish dialects". –Austronesier (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @De Wikischim:: I don't follow, at all.

My text didn't mention ″Dutch dialects″ anywhere, it mentioned ″Limburgish dialects″. So I'll again ask: what's the significant difference you claim there is between ″Limburgish″ and ″Limburgish dialects″, because I, for the life of me, cannot see any problem with this. Nor does dialect association Veldeke by the way, as they explicitly named their spelling the ″2003 spelling for the Limburgish dialects″. It's as clear as the sky, you say, well then, please do explain.

You know what, I'll answer it for you and in doing so, we'll touch the actual issue at play here, which is not my ″significantly different″ wording but your NPOV and unfamiliarity with linguistic terminology: You want to portray Limburgish as a (that is, in your eyes) ″true language″. Your ideal image is for Wikipedia to state that ″Limburgish″ is just another Germanic language, just like Icelandic, Frisian or English are, preferably without any mention of the relation these dialects share with Dutch (or German) as a whole. You don't like the word ″dialect″ because you yourself think of a ″dialect″, ″variety″ or ″dialect group″ to be of a lower class than a ″language″.

A linguist, or an objective editor for that matter, most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″. Linguists care about describing and analysing what they see and that's inevitably going to bring them (or rather their publications) into conflict with your NPOV. Because Dutch is undeniably the Dachsprache of the Limburgish dialects. Because Limburgish dialects are seen as a part of the Dutch dialect landscape both historically and contemporarily by an overwhelming majority of authors. Because Limburgish dialects do not fulfill all aspects of the ″typical″ standardized European national language. And so on, and so on. And no, this doesn't in any way, shape or form delegate Limburgish dialects to any inferior status or detract from the various typological or sociolinguistical qualities or political status (some of) these dialects have, it's merely one aspect of this dialect grouping.

You are (and always have been) principally focused on giving Limburgish status — and attacking all those who, in your eyes, seek to diminish that supposed status. For example by using the perfectly normal word ″dialect″ instead of ″language″ or the mere mentioning of ″Dutch″. You need to stop that, because it's not only incredibly unscientific, it's harmful to this article. Vlaemink (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Because Limburgish dialects are seen as a part of the Dutch dialect landscape › Maybe this was still by and large the situation about a century ago, when dialectology was hardly seriously practiced yet. It's simply the dominant consent among most linguists nowadays that Limburgish, given all its characteristics, is a regional language on its own, just with the same (that is, Low Franconian) historical linguistic base as most of the dialects/varieties spoken in the area where standard Dutch is the Dachsprache. That was, as well, the main reason for the recognition as such in the Dutch province of Limburg in 1997. So again, this has nothing to do at all with "your [=my] NPOV".

Anyway, all this has already been explained before very thoroughly, especially (again) last year on the Dutch Wikipedia, with relevant sources being given as well - something you should still know very well. In the archives of nl:Overleg:Limburgs, similar discussions about the linguistic status as Limburgish/its relation to the Dutch language/Dachsprache go back as far as mid 2007(!), see the first archive. De Wikischim (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is your typical tactic: ″it's all as clear as the sky″, ″it's all been explained before″, ″it's so obvious it doesn't require any explanation″, ″this is the dominant consensus view″ ... that's not going to work. It doesn't work on the Dutch Wikipedia, and it's certainly not going to work here.

You claim its common knowledge? Prove it. Plain and simple: cite your sources. Provide a source, which states what you claim. Vlaemink (talk) 15:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, just one which could be found with a first simple search through Google Books: [4] (Developmental, Modal, and Pathological Variation-Linguistic and Cognitive Profiles for Speakers of Linguistically Proximal Languages and Varieties).

Anyway, I'm citing this now especially for those who read along; I know you will reject this source immmediately as unusable (since it isn't well compatible with the vision "Limburgish dialects = variants of the Dutch language"). De Wikischim (talk) 15:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

When I asked you the above question; I already had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen next: there would be a link to a Google search (✔), probably accompanied by a remark stating how easy it was to find (✔), but without actually citing the source (✔), possibly with an additional remark stating something like ″this confirms everything I said, but my opponent will nevertheless reject it″ (✔).

This is your standard MO when it comes to trying to convince others of your NPOV; and while you endlessly repeat this tactic, seemingly convinced that it will indeed work out at one point, is never does or ever will because it's not based in objectivity and people are not stupid.

Take @Austronesier: for example, who's shown some considerable aptitude for cutting through bullshit, be it Wiki-Drama or content-related.

Do you honestly think, that he's going to be convinced by this? That he's somehow not going to notice that you just typed "Limburgish + Language + recognition" into the search bar (I mean, it's actually visible in the top of the screen!) and literally copied the first result that came up? Do you honestly believe that he's not going to look into the actual source, read it, and then come to the inevitable conclusion that this is no way supports your claim? Do you think he's going to be reassured by the idea that you've now outed yourself as an editor who goes out searching for literature to support of his view, rather than searching for literature in order to form a view?! It's borderline insulting that you seem to think you can get away with this and it's almost frightening that you don't seem to have any qualms with attempting it.

You cannot bluff or debate your way out of providing valid and reliable sources: you're dealing with serious people, so either (considerably) up your game, or leave the table. Vlaemink (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: The link to Google Books I gave above automatically leads you to a few text fragments on the pages 37, 39 and 44. There you can see illuminating examples of how "Limburgish" is used in practise by linguists to denote it as a minority language. Of course there's way more to find - but I don't have time the whole day just for this either to keep on searching. Anyway I hope this helps you at least somehow. De Wikischim (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

This is - again... - completely untrue: [...] literally copied the first result that came up. Here (Thanks Vlaemink for giving this extra link to Books; you're actually helping me in some way, though I suppose that was not really your own intention.) the title of the first book which shows up is Standardizing Minority Languages: Competing Ideologies of Authority [...] (2017). This is definitely NOT the book I had cited above at 15:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC) (which shows up as the seventh result).

Regarding after all the actual first result in Google Books, this passage for example may be interesting here too: [5]. De Wikischim (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, yes, everything that criticizes or calls you out is completely untrue. The problem isn't that you do not provide proper sources or citations. The problem isn't that you just throw some Google-searches around and direct other users to (and this is verbatim) ″a few text fragments″. No, the problem are ″the others″ always ″out to get you″. (Personal attack removed) Vlaemink (talk) 06:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Again @Austronesier: The discussion under this subtitle is being constantly blurred, anyway can you still at least try to take a good look at the links to Google Books posted above? They may be very helpful to keep the content of this article in balance. De Wikischim (talk) 08:24, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This link may be helpful too: [6]. (The title of the book is The Legal Recognition of Sign Languages: Advocacy and Outcomes Around the World', but the passage cited is just about the recognition of minority languages within the Netherlands.) De Wikischim (talk) 09:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

You must aware of confirmation bias and "cherry-picking". Sources are not used to prove a point that I am convinced of beforehead. WP articles use sources to reflect how a topic is discussed in the relevant literature. A Google search will only you give you the positives, but you cannot tell if the negatives are the iceberg below the tip or really irrelevant. In the case of the status of Limburgish, you need to survey relevant sources without a pre-set search result. Relevant sources include literature about (West) Germanic languages, the linguistic diversity of the Low Countries and Europe in general, language regulation in Europe, topical descriptions of Limburgish (either in toto, or of single varieties), and so on. Of course many talk about Limburgish as a language in a matter of fact fashion (after all it's got an ISO-code; I know that this is a non-argument, but it often comes into play) without going into details of its relatively recent official recognition. But there are also sources from the 2010s and 2020s that bluntly talk about "Limburg Dutch" when talking about basilectal varieties of Limburg (like Peter Schrijver does in Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages). –Austronesier (talk) 10:08, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Vlaemink (talk) 11:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Segway into sociolinguistics and linguistic barriers

(after a edit conflict; seeing that you were specifically replying to my comment, and for the sake of readability, I created a subsection containing your comment on sociolinguistics and linguistic barriers Austronesier, I hope you do not mind. Vlaemink (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC))

A linguist, or an objective editor for that matter, most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″. That's not entirely correct. Linguistic barriers are man-made and the study of them is part of sociolinguistics; they can emerge organically in a slow historical process, but also as a result of deliberate efforts to bolster a national or regional identity. Luxembourgish has emerged from a Moselle Franconian dialect of German and still can be classified as part of the Moselle Franconian dialect group; sociolinguistically, it is undeniably a language of its own, having all properties of an Ausbausprache. In the case of Limburgish, the object of this deliberate effort have been the basilectal varieties of Dutch Limburg. Sure, Dutch remains for the most part Dachsprache of the Limburgish dialects, but that doesn't mean that speakers of Limburgish in the Netherlands have no right to consider their cluster of Low Franconian varieties as a regional language in its own right, even when it is lacking some characteristics of a full Ausbausprache—most minority languages in the world also do. Advocates of Limburgish are wise enough not waste time on standardization (except for orthography), because their main objective is the preservation of traditional local speech varieties and to create a "safe space" for them within the linguistic diversity in the Netherlands, well aware of the fact that in public laypeople's awareness, dialects continue to be perceived as lesser realizations of the common Dutch languages (or in the worst case, "wrong" Dutch).

But even for advocates of Limburgish linguistic identity, nothing has changed about their place in the continental West Germanic dialect continuum: obviously, they blend slowly into Brabantian in the southwest and into Ripuarian in the east (but more markedly into Brabantian and Kleverlandish in the northwest and north); but obviously also, most Limburgish varieties are hardly intelligible for speakers of standard Dutch, so at the extremes, Dutch-Limburgish Abstand is not much smaller than for Limburgish-German. It is a matter of perspective, and when you open your eyes, you will find plenty good sources that state "Limburgish is a regional language of the Netherlands" and further take no concern whatsoever in the status of Limburgish, because their actual topic is syntax, phonology, linguistic vitality or whatever. Yes, linguists most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″; which is exactly why they have come to respect the self-perception of speech communities. –Austronesier (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The statement is of course correct, as it 1) has the ″most of the time″-modifier, and, 2) you literally repeat and confirm what I've said at the end of your comment! ;)

On a more serious note, what you write is of course (mostly ;) true, but I would ask you not to misconstrue or misrepresent my argument, i.e. falling in De Wikischims trap: I am not advocating the position that speakers of Limburgish dialects have no right to call their dialects a (regional) language — and never have.

I'm merely pointing out, that views are not monolithic and differ. For example, while some speakers of Limburgish dialects might consider their language wholly separate from Dutch, others (for example, the Dutch general public, or linguists, or even other Limburgers) might not do so — and that these views should also be represented.

I would love for this article to explain in which respects and to what extent Limburgish constitutes an Ausbausprache. I would love for this article to have a section on the sociological perception of the Limburgish dialects both historically and geographically. I would love for this article to have a section in which its distance to Standard Dutch is explained, while also explaining that within a dialectal framework they are part of a continuum.

In other words, I am one for the big picture, not for a narrow view which excluded various political, cultural or linguistic realities based on a personal preference. I hope we're agreed on that. Vlaemink (talk) 17:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I maninly have referred to the Dachsprache-gambit and the statement "Limburgish dialects do not fulfill all aspects of the ″typical″ standardized European national language" (which I would have phrased "Limburgish does not fulfill..."). So? Does it matter for Kashubian, Sorbian or the multiple Saami varieties? You have said in the section below that we should focus on what Limburgish is (in all its position definitions) instead of what it's not... So we have a direction that we head for now, innit? –Austronesier (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Preferably, we focus both on that the Limburgish dialects are as well as what they are not. Phrases such as "the ″typical″ standardized European national language" are to be avoided in my opinion, as are comparisons to Sorbian and Saami, which are clearly in a different linguistic position.Vlaemink (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Thanks, this seems to me a rather good summary of the main stuff this is all about actually. And it's exactly the reason why I already suggested earlier (for example, a few years ago or so in one of the "parallel" discussions on the Dutch WP) to use neither language for Limburgish in the intro (like in the current version of the article here) nor dialect[s]/dialect group, but to call it [a group of] Low Franconian varieties. This "compromise", however, has not been generally accepted either, at least not on Wikipedia-NL. I still think it would have solved at least some part of the still ongoing problems with this. De Wikischim (talk) 17:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

"A group of Low Franconian varieties" is fine as long as it becomes clear that the boundaries of that group are partially or entirely set by territorial borders, and not (or partially not) on intra-linguistic arguments. "A group of Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands" appears to be the best solution, as long as it is immediately followed by "...and a recognized minority language in the Dutch provice of Limburg", or similar to that. –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I can agree with it that way, including the last part. So as for my part, you can re-write the intro accordingly, and let's hope this will at least solve something. De Wikischim (talk) 18:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy, De Wikischims then proposed wording was: ″Limburgish, together with Dutch and Afrikaans, among others, forms the contemporary Low Franconian language variety″ — which was, unsurprisingly, rejected.

As for a workable definition; ″a group of Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands″ is a good starting position, but it needs fine-tuning.

For example, Bakker (1997) excludes the South Low Franconian dialects in Germany from ″Limburgish″ due to a lack of dialect identity; which means the sociological dimension matters. He also comes to the conclusion that one of the defining characteristics of "Limburgish" is its extremely limited contribution to the Dutch standard language and subsequent relative distance from it. Furthermore, the recognized minority language-status is a tricky one, as this has been legally defined as applying to all the dialects of the province of Dutch Limburg; regardless of linguistic classification. Vlaemink (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you please move on and kindly strike out the first paragraph? There is this thing on ANI when two editors bring a content dispute there and then A explains why B is a jerk, and B explain why A is jerk, but 90% of readers only think "what they each say about the other actually says more about themselves..." .

It's not just Bakker who excludes the South Low Franconian dialects in Germany from "Limburgish". Virtually nobody includes them. Goossens suggested his terminological revision for no other reason than to avoid clumsiness (Ostsüdniederfränkisch etc.), but it never caught up (after all German dialectologists have never had a problem with things like "ostwestfälisch"). The recognized minority language-status for "non-Limburgish" dialects in Limburg is a bit tricky, but this is easily resolved by spelling it out. I've done that in South Low Franconian. It becomes tricky in the further discussion when talking e.g. about structural features of Limburgish but that is again easily resolved by only using examples from varieties that are considered Limburgish by both extant definitions (Roermomds, Hasselts etc., but not Venrays or Budels; I'll make an exception for Venlos as the classificatory value of the Uerdingen line is contested among dialectologists—and because Bakker (Frens, not Pierre) is an awsome linguist). –Austronesier (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Taking this into account; maybe something like ...

″The Limburgish dialects are a group of South Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands¹, characterized by their relative distance to Standard Dutch². In the Dutch province of Limburg, all dialects have been given regional language status, including those comprising ″Limburgish″ as used in this article.³″

Or something similar. This way, the German varieties are excluded without ignoring their typological similarity by mentioning Low South Franconian as a whole; thus placing Limburgish within a wider frame (¹). The sociolinguistic dimension is touched upon by both alluding to the distance to Standard Dutch (which, by explicitly using "standard", still leaves the door open to the Low Franconian/Dutch dialect continuum) (²) and the regional language status without misconstruing the poltical/legal complexities there (³). Vlaemink (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

"Limburgish is...", and we're almost there. Inspite of the diversity, there is a single collective (etic or emic) identity, either in the first or in the second sense. –Austronesier (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I used ″Limburgish dialects″ because you used ″a group of Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands″, which to me works best in combination with a plural noun. I don't care either way if Limburgish or Limburgish dialects is used in the article lead.

As for a ″collective identity″ ... that's a tricky one, because the dialect identity also includes varieties which are not South Low Franconian. We should not imply that speakers of what is (going to be) defined as ″Limburgish″ in this article only include what is typologically Limburgish with(in) their idea of ″Limburgish″, as, for example, the inhabitants of Vaals also consider themselves to speak ″Limburgish″. I think this is best explained in the article itself, rather than be included in the lead. Vlaemink (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Clean up of unsourced material (november)

Over the years as well as more recently, various templates and cite-tags have been added to this article, requesting reliable and valid sources for many of its claims. While WP:SOURCE very clearly states that any material that requires but lacks citations may be removed immediately, I'd like to ask any followers of this page to add sources to what is questioned/unsourced within a period of three weeks. Instead of removing the disputed material outright, I think it's more practical to allow for a grace period instead of repeatingly having to go to the page history to re-add material if sources can be found. Following this period, I will remove the sections for which no sources were provided. Vlaemink (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

This article has been flooded by edits that range from blunt language advocacy to an atomistic focus on taxomony. Limburgian linguists have produced fantastic research in last 30 years or so (not to forget older works by Goossens), but little of it is echoed in this article (except for the phonological parts by User:Sol505000, one of the few quality editors ever having touched this page lately). It's a pity for such a beautiful topic. –Austronesier (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is exactly why this article needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Instead of long defunct partisan and/or websites and unsourced OR, it needs proper linguistic literature. Instead of being an eclectic, hardly readable (let alone understandable) mess, it needs to follow a common thread/framework and needs to clearly define its subject. And thirdly, it needs non-activist editors who understand the topic, or, at the very least, understand that using terms like "varieties", "dialects", "dialect group" instead of using "language" doesn't equate to making a value judgment.Vlaemink (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The quality of Wikipedia does not hinge on a single article. We shouldn't "incubate" problematic material into a standalone article. Two problematic articles are worse than one problematic aritcle. This is why have turned "Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects" into a redirect. I am also worried about WP:GNG when it's just a subtopic of the history of how to put Limburgish varieties into writing. The correct procedure would be first to improve the subtopic "Orthography" in this article along the lines of Assendelft (2019) and potentially split it out if size issues arise. Only then we can think about a Spelling 2003-article as a sub-sub-topic.

As for the rest, we should definitely proceed as you suggest: tag, grace period, remove. Also, everything about wider the South Low Franconian context can be trimmed to a summary paragraph, since there's a dedicated article for the dialect group (please but don't "incubate" stuff there!). At the same time, we should decide how to deal with non-Limburgish dialects in Dutch Limburg and especially Belgian Limburg. According to Dutch streektaal policies, Venrays and Meijels are "Limburgish"; but what about Lommels then? By applying the Dutch logic to Belgium, it would be Limburgish too (and it in fact is in the sense as it is part of the linguistic diversity of Limburg), but for dialectologists, hardly so. And then there's the opposite case of Budels. Spoken outside of Limburg, it is sociolinguistically not Limburgish just as Krieewelsch isn't, but in Dutch dialectology, it is included in the Limburgish gamut (but Krieweelsch etc. not). –Austronesier (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding [...] how to deal with non-Limburgish dialects in Dutch Limburg, see d:Q9303961 in case you need some inspiration. A separate article on this would likely have added value here too.

By the way (it may perhaps be a little surprising...?), I agree as well that a separate article on the "non-official" Veldeke spelling as such can(/should) exist as such. Anyway, it needs to be sourced better indeed than the current version. De Wikischim (talk) 12:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think most dialectologist nowadays would disagree with labelling the dialects of Northern Limburg as "Brabant-Limburg transition dialects". That term is mostly reserved for the area around the Geteline, while for the northern dialects that do not belong to Limburgs in the linguistic sense, scholars like Giesbers, Svanenberg and Bakker (and also the Raod veur't Limburgs) prefer "Kleverlands" as these dialects display little of the typical features of the Brabantian group. But this is just a minor question. It's more about the rest. –Austronesier (talk) 12:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I undid you edit which redirected the Spelling 2003 for the Limburgian dialects-article to this one [7]. To turn the article into a redirect barely two days after its been created for relying on a single source (btw, the same single it relied upon while previously part this article) is somewhat unreasonable in my eyes and if you, like you said, are in favor of a grace period for deleting unsourced material here, then surely you would apply that same mindset to the spelling article — which has since been expanded.

As for the rest of your comment, I think this is skipping an important step: before defining which dialects are not Limburgish, we will first need to define what is, and on what basis/by which definition. This includes elaborating on the regional language status, which applies only to Dutch Limburg and to the entirety of its territory; regardless of what may linguistically may be considered "Limburgish". Vlaemink (talk) 13:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between a grace period for new junk and old junk. WP is inert and that's good thing. ONUS, BRD, y'know. But I have given up on this... –Austronesier (talk) 13:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's highly exaggerated to consider big parts of this article as unreliable, and use this as a reason to cut them from the article. First, the article already cites ten apparently reliable sources now (see Limburgish#Sources). Apart from that, you can simply put at least some trust in the editors who worked on this article in the recent years (and longer ago). Indeed there are some question tags, but at least one of them seems very superfuous (In Belgium, the Limburgish dialects are more endangered than in the Netherlands › this is a generally well-known fact, about which nobody who is at least somewhat familiar with the linguistic situation in the Dutch and Belgian provinces of Limburg would have any doubt). De Wikischim (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No, there have been some really, really bad additions to the aricle in the past years, and it needs to be handled with a WP:TNT-approach, if necessary. If something is "a generally well-known fact", then it won't be hard to find a reliable source for it. WP:V is unnegotiable. For "In Belgium, the Limburgish dialects are more endangered than in the Netherlands", I can immediately think of at least three out of hand from my own knowledge of the relevant literature. –Austronesier (talk) 14:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

[...] Hoewel ook in België muziekgroepen in dialect zingen, is de dialectrevival hier veel zwakker dan in Nederland: doordat de standaardtaal in België minder lang en minder algemeen verbreid is dan in Nederland, wordt er meer op de dialecten neergekeken. Ook de politieke en financiële steun voor streektalen en dialecten is in België minder groot dan in Nederland., [8]. (Do I need to translate this into English, or do you understand it enough this way?). Just one example of a quote which 100% endorses the relevant text part in this article. De Wikischim (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Stop the bickering: WP:SOFIXIT. And I fucking do speak Dutch. –Austronesier (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

While I agree with you, please watch your language. Vlaemink (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Which one of the three languages that I use on a daily basis? –Austronesier (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Article lead

Given the past discussions on the talk page, I've modified the article lead accordingly:

1.

Limburgish (also Limburgian, Limburgic or Limburgan) refers to a group of South Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands, characterized by their relative distance to Standard Dutch. In the Dutch province of Limburg, all dialects have been given regional language status, including those comprising ″Limburgish″ as used in this article.

I added the lead intro as thus far agreed upon. The matter of "language identity" is still being debated, but can be added later should this be the outcome of the discussion.

I omitted the Dutch, German, French and two of the (at least) three common renderings of "Limburgian" in the Limburgish dialects from the lead to keep it readable: a grand total of 10 different designations across multiple languages is a bit too much. I think the Limburgish terms can be worked into the sociolinguistic-section later on, for example in contrast to the South Low Franconian dialects of Germany, which do not use such a term.

I removed the remaining text contained within the previous iteration of the article lead for the following reasons:

2:

Although frequently misunderstood as such, Limburgish as a linguistic term does not refer to the regional variety of Dutch spoken in the Belgian and Dutch provinces of Limburg. Within the modern communities of these provinces, intermediate idiolects are also very common, which combine standard Dutch with the accent and some grammatical and pronunciation tendencies derived from Limburgish. This "Limburgish Dutch" is confusingly also often referred to simply as "Limburgish", although in Belgium such intermediate languages tend to be called tussentaal ("in-between language"), no matter the exact dialect/language with which standard Dutch is combined.

This section did not have any citations — and if it would have had these, the section is too specific for the article lead and should ideally (provided sources can be found) be split up between an expanded terminology section and a section of the article dealing with the sociolinguistc minutia.

3.

Since Limburgish is still the mother tongue of many inhabitants in the aforementioned region, Limburgish grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation can have a significant impact on the way locals speak Dutch in public life.

The first part of this excerpt was WP:VAGUE and not inline with WP:SOURCE. The second part, did contain a source for the claim that Limburgian dialect exert a significant impact on the way locals speak Dutch, but this concerns a detailed analysis of a 15th century Middle Dutch manuscript containing various indicators that the authors dialect was Limburgish (link). This, of course, was not acceptable as a source in this context.

4.

Limburgish shares vocabulary and grammatical characteristics with both German and Dutch, but has some unique features as well. Many dialects of Limburgish (and of the closely related Ripuarian) have a pitch accent.

For the time being, I also removed the above passage. Firstly, because the sources provided do not support the claims made; one is a very short grammar summary, the other is a local dialect website. Secondly, because the phrasing is problematic. I do feel the dialectal affinities of the Limburgish dialects and the surrounding dialects should definitely be expanded on in the article, as well as the relation between the dialects and Standard Dutch, possibly also Standard German. Whether this belongs in the lead is a question for a later time, when the article itself is properly sourced and written with regard to this issue. After all, ideally, the article lead should summarize the article itself. Vlaemink (talk) 08:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I oppose these radical changes because they have been implemented without any prior consent of others who are/were involved here, while all kinds of info have been removed now mainly for subjective/discutable reasons (such as rejecting specific sources on more or less arbitrary grounds). Only information which is evidently incorrect should be removed without any futher discussion, while this is definitely not the case here. And even if some of the info was not really at its best place immediately in the lead, it would have been far better to move it to a different section within this article instead.

So my suggestion (to others who read along here) is to wait for some time and see if there's enough consent for these removals. if not, the info cited above should be put back (either in the into or elsewhere in the article). De Wikischim (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

About the now removed passage Limburgish shares vocabulary and grammatical characteristics with both German and Dutch, but has some unique features as well. Many dialects of Limburgish (and of the closely related Ripuarian) have a pitch accent › These facts are completely self-evident for everyone who has at least some minimal knowledge of Limburgish and the linguistic situation. Doubting about this is actually the same as, for example, doubting about the fact that English, German and Dutch have many cognates in common, and provide that as a so-called valid reason to remove the info. Therefore I think at least this last passage should be restored immediately. -De Wikischim (talk) 09:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's a mixed bag.

As a first remedy, I will restore what obviously needs to be there in the opening sentence (the name in Dutch and Limburgish; English pronunciation in a note).

The linguistic feature of tone is mentioned in the body of the article and relevant for the lead, not just for language enthusiasts, but also for the general public: it explains the common perception of the "sing-song" character of Limburgish speech.

The caveat about not confusing basilectal Limburgish with lingua olandese in bocca limburghese is important, but I agree that it needs to be covered in the article first with good sources, before we can restore it in the lead. Same holds for the linguistic janus-facedness of Limburgish (or South LFr as a whole, for that matter) between the poles of Hollandic-based standard Dutch and East Central German-based standard German. Relevant, but WP:V trumps everything especially in the lede. I might incubate some of it in the article body, and let the grace period principle work.

But for subsequent radical steps, I urge to get consensus first before implementing them in the article. This is what every 3O or dispute resolution will tell you. And also WP:NODEADLINE. Don't press things. I make an exception about everything that appropriates German South LFr dialects under "Limburgish". We maximally need to mention that the "Limburgish" in the dialectological sense has a continuation on German territory, but not under this label. I think we all agree on this. –Austronesier (talk) 09:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier:

• 1. For me personally, the use of multiple names in the article lead is not a deal-breaking big issue. However, I would like you to clarify which Limburgish term(s) you will be using and why. After all, these are nonstandardized dialects; which spelling/form/variant do you propose to use?
• 2. I too would like the tonal aspect to be in lead, however; I would like it to be stressed that this is an areal feature rather than being particular to Limburgish — with proper and valid citations, of course.
• 3. I would support a short concise (not the previous drivel) sentence on the various definitions used in the lead, but, as you say, this first required to get this right in the article itself.

So I think this is going to work out, eventually — which will allow the lead to expand again. Vlaemink (talk) 10:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

ad 2: WP:LEADCITE. If you really want to go the bottom-up approach, citations in the article body are generally sufficient. My version puts it into the full context of Fraconian tone accent. I will make this explicit. –Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This is okay by me, the areal tonal feature is sufficiently sourced in the article for what is now written in the lead. I saw you added other older material too though, which was completely unsourced; please read the top post and please do not re-add those portions. Vlaemink (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: The manual of style concerning lead sections is also abundantly clear on how an article introduction should look, and any objective person giving this style guide as much as a glance, will quickly come to the conclusion that the previous lead was not at all in accordance with this. Additionally, the rationales provided above are neither arbitrary nor subjective, rather, they are fully in line with WP:VERIFIABILITY. Sources need to be both valid and reliable. For a source to meet these criteria, it needs to concern the same matter as the claim its being used for as well as being reputable: this is neither optional nor ″radical″, it is required and expected.

In my post I've already made clear some sections of the previous lead, or rather their topics, could or should be placed in the article itself; or might have a place in the lead once sources have been provided. However, I personally do not add or relocate information that has no proper or valid source to back it up — as is the case here — meaning that I left it out. However, you're free to re-add these sections (you've been alerted to WP:SOFIXIT quite recently) to the article provided proper citations are given. I have no problem with that, at all.

Lastly, I think it's important to really stress (to avoid any miscommunication) that WP:VERIFIABILITY trumps your personal approval: you do not own this article and your agreement is not required for removing (be it temporarily or permanently) unreferenced and/or dubious information. Vlaemink (talk) 10:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus trumps everthing. Wikilaywering doesn't. Note this. –Austronesier (talk) 10:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for partly restoring the old version of the article lead (by the way, I do agree that the full old version was not really perfect either, but have already eplained my objections to the initial complete re-writing). I've now removed "relative distance to standard Dutch"; this was a) lacking any clarifying further context and b) unsourced (!). De Wikischim (talk) 10:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The article by Bakker first added here can be fully read (in Dutch) here: [9]. However it doesn't support the claim "relative distance to standard Dutch" in any way at all, therefore it should be considered not usable for this part of the article. On the other hand, it does support - at least, partly - this passage: This "Limburgish Dutch" is confusingly also often referred to simply as "Limburgish", although in Belgium such intermediate languages tend to be called tussentaal ("in-between language"), no matter the exact dialect/language with which standard Dutch is combined. De Wikischim (talk) 23:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I partially reverted you, because this is not the way. First and foremost: a hard no, consensus does not trump WP:VERIFIABILITY. You recently re-added part of the old lead again ([10]) writing "at least this was sourced" — when it was absolutely not, as explain (and shown) in the top post here. Please do not do this again, and take the time to read the above (top post) rationale. Vlaemink (talk) 10:20, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Austronesier is fully right, as this is the source (visible to anyone): [11]. So you actually removed at least one sourced passage, and on the other hand added an unsourced and out-of-context passage ("relative distance to Standard Dutch") to the lead. De Wikischim (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is off-putting. Even if one is technically correct, there are awfully wrong ways to be right. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort of volunteers. I for my part have now decided to abstain from voluteering in the improvement of this article. And I have no time to bring this to a drama board, although this appears to be the only right thing to do now at this point. You do not own this article. –Austronesier (talk) 10:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to correct myself. There is Twinkle, which requires minimal energy. –Austronesier (talk) 10:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: It doesn't support that line in any way?! You must have missed page 109: bij zowel het Nedersaksisch als het Limburgs gaat om een groep nauw verwante dialecten die sterk van de nationale standaardtaal verschillen en nauwelijks hebben bijgedragen aan het ontstaan van die standaardtaal. / Both Low Saxon and Limburgish are a group of closely related dialects that differ greatly from the national standard language and have hardly contributed to the origins of that standard language. Vlaemink (talk) 11:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep, a correct translation. So what Bakker actually states here (correctly, I think) is that both Limburgish and Low Saxon are each individually made up of a cluster of mutually related dialects and as such, they differ significantly from Dutch, the standard language (just like, for example, Kashubian as it is spoken in a few parts of East Germany differs significantly from the standard language in that same area). Still this doesn't support in any respect the claim about a supposed "relative (?) distance from Standard Dutch", so I'll just remove this passage again. De Wikischim (talk) 11:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The source says, what it says. There's no "I think he means this", there's no mention of "Kashubian" or "East Germany"; that's you attempting to misconstrue a valid source to fit your preferred narrative. It's not going to fly. The source says, what it says: Limburgish is characterized by its distance from Standard Dutch and it's highly limited role in the creation of this Standard language. What part of that do you not understand? Vlaemink (talk) 11:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the article says: "characterized by its distance". It apparently doesn't say: "characterized by its relative distance" - I wish you good luck with finding additional sources to support the latter claim. De Wikischim (talk) 11:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Well - this newest version seems - finally - at least a little more acceptable (if you definitely want to use Bakker's article for this purpose), though I still find it an unnecessary addition at least in the lead. The relation to Standard Dutch is - of course - an important aspect, but the lead should focus on the main topic, which is Limburgish as such. De Wikischim (talk) 12:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: My only "problem" with you is that you recently re-added information, summarizing that "At least this was sourced" when it clearly wasn't: they source does not concern itself with "how Limburg locals speak Dutch in public life"; it's an incredibly detailed analysis of a 15th century Middle Dutch manuscript. That's it! On all other points of the new lead, I am in full agreement with you.

I tried to warn you for the current situation when I asked you to stay vigilant. What is happening here now, is wat De Wikischim wants: drama, which then leads to inertia, keeping his preferred status quo ante bellum. Please, do not fall for that. Stick to the sources, be critical of what I write and propose , just as I am of you; but please, do not give in here. Vlaemink (talk) 11:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I repeat what I have said before: there is this thing when A explains why B is a jerk, and B explains why A is jerk, but 90% of readers only think "what they each say about the other actually says more about themselves..." My vigilance simply says: the air is toxic when rules ([here[12], there's WP:ONUS!) only apply to others but not to oneself, I can't breathe, I'm off. –Austronesier (talk) 11:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly ... how can the addition of that sentence constitute WP:ONUS? It's part of the formulation that was agreed upon here: [13]. Anyway, I hope you will reconsider when you catch your breath again at some point, because, like you yourself said: it's a pity for such a beautiful topic and I truly consider you to be a helpful, objective and knowledgeable editor. [14]. Vlaemink (talk) 11:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I have said we're almost there. De Wikischim – who at this point for me is just another editor in good standing as you are – has never agreed to it; and even if one(!) source says so (confirmation bias, "cherry-picking", remember?), when they disagree with that addition, then it is very much a matter of WP:ONUS. This is not about me or regaining my breath; it's about releasing the choke. It is about maintaining a collaborative spirit that entails finding consensus before rushing things with brute force. When I don't see that this spirit is upheld, my choice is to leave matters to the rest of the community. When I see a genuine commitment to live up to that spirit, I gladly take part in further efforts. Simple as that. –Austronesier (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

For someone who claims to despise drama, you certainly have a flair for it ;) I never made this [15] edit by brute force. I might have been too quick to implement, that's something I will admit to, but this formulation did have a majority here, with a third user remaining formally undeclared.

Notice here how I'm willing to admit that I was wrong. Notice also, how, throughout the above discussion, I've consistently used sources to support my position and/or doubts. Notice the absence of this in others.

You talk about ″maintaining″ a collaborative spirit, but there never was one to begin with. You want total agreement on the talk page before implementing any change whatsoever, and I'm telling you, this is never going to work because we do not all have the same mindset or intentions. I want to improve this article based on scientific literature, you want to do this, but the elephant in the room is that (Personal attack removed). You've seen this, you've commented on this, and as long as you're going to advocate total consensus instead of merely a consensus, you are giving him exactly what he wants: a veto in an article in whose content he's personally invested. Instead, what this article needs, is serious editors who look at the literature, and eventually reach a majority consensus text based on what can be supported by literature and use that to improve the article. Vlaemink (talk) 14:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Protected

Per the request at WP:RFPP, I have fully protected the article for two weeks. Let me or any other admin know if consensus is reached and protection can be removed. Johnuniq (talk) 22:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Text parts added to/removed from the lead

Until yesterday, this was still part of the definition in the lead: [...] spoken in Dutch Limburg, Belgian Limburg, [and neighbouring regions of Germany (North Rhine-Westphalia)] (the latter part seems rather the somewhat broader definition of South Low Franconian; maybe this essential distinction should be re-added as well to the lead in a different form, to distinguish better and immediately between Limburgish and SLF). The current version only defines the territory where Limburgish is spoken, very vaguely and not in any detail, as ... Belgium and the Netherlands.. . So this new version seems very incomplete, unlike the previous version. Therefore I think at least this is no improvement at all.

Another striking issue with the new lead is the emphasis which is now immediately laid on the relation of Limburgish to Standard Dutch (with Bakker (1997) as the only source used). My suggestion is to move this part to the section "Classification and history" (or maybe "Characteristics", not existing in the current article version),

What do others (preferably I'd like to see especially non-involved editors here) think about these points? De Wikischim (talk) 09:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

"Characterized by their distance to, and limited participation in the formation of, Standard Dutch" is a very inapt and cherry-picked classifier for what Limburgish is (and to "refers to"). For the most part since late the 19th century, "Limburgish" is the Dutch/Belgian term for the southeasternmost group of Low Franconian varieties spoken on the territory of the Low Countries (in other words: South Low Franconian minus its dialects in Germany and eastern Luik). With the emergence of the Limburgs language movement, it has come to designate the collective of all basilects in Limburg that has attained regional language status in NL. Since this is English WP, we don't really need a Dutch POV-based fork about a transnational dialect area, so this article can safely focus on the sociolinguistic/politcal aspect of Limburgish, which is best mirrored in the lede by identifying it as a regional language spoken in spoken in Dutch Limburg and Belgian Limburg (and obviously not in Germany) AND in the next sentence mention its second meaning.

We should take care not to equate Limburgs with "Limburgish". In B/NL scholarship, Limburgs has a strong connotational baggage as a dialect group, but in common international parlance, "Limburgish" doesn't (or at least does to a much lesser extent). Go to Ngram Viewer[16] and you'll find that "Limburgish" is almost entirely confined to 21th century discourse. A thorough unbiased survey of these source will tell if the topic of this article should be about "a group of Dutch dialects spoken in the southern Netherlands and Belgium" (Noun Phrase Structure in the Languages of Europe, 2008) or an "official regional language in the Netherlands" (Multilingualism in European Language Education, 2019). –Austronesier (talk) 09:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think especially this should be an essential part of the definition: With the emergence of the Limburgs language movement, it has come to designate the collective of all basilects in Limburg that has attained regional language status in NL, now missing in the lead, at least in this form.

About the (supposed) "[relative] distance of Limburgish to Standard Dutch", I already pointed out (see above) that this info may be better at its place elsewhere within this article (the "Classification" section, for example).

Apart from that, I'm a little in doubt as well about the use of the article by Frens Bakker (1997) as a primary source for this. Bakker's article is very well usable as such for this subject, but focuses mainly on other relevant aspects of the Limburgish language (those aspects seem by and large absent from the article right now). De Wikischim (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: While Bakker (1997) could be criticized for being having somewhat of a ″popular linguistic″ vibe to it, I really don't see how repeating his remark that Limburgish dialects are characterized by their distance to, and limited participation in the formation of, Standard Dutch can be qualified as either ″cherry picked″ or ″inapt″, as it's one of the defining characteristics mentioned by Bakker.

And I would agree with this, as it seems that Standard Dutch is essential with regards to defining Limburgish, which would prove very difficult if not impossible to classify ″Limburgish″ as something other than South Low Franconian, without factoring in Standard Dutch; for example as a Dachsprache or as a major factor in dialectal decline. Defining ″Limburgish″ by isoglosses alone is not possible, as there is no isogloss separating it from South Low Franconian in Germany, and defining it by political status is not possible either, as there is no recognition in Belgium and the Dutch recognition is not specific to South Low Franconian. Defining ″Limburgish″ as ″South Low Franconian with Dutch as its Dachsprache″ seems very workable to me. It's not 100% watertight, but I don't see a better or more practical one.

As for using the term ″Limburgish language movement″, this is problematic as ″Limburgse taalbeweging″ gives a total of three results in Dutch, while ″Limburgish language movement″ has a grand total of zero] results in English. In addition to it not being term used, literature on this subject that the impetus for the regional language recognition wasn't at all a secessionist language movement, but rather a mainly conservatory effort mixed with a nation-wide resurgence of regionalism.

In order to work, this article needs to clear up what it's really about. For me personally, all the grammar/phonology/vocabulary and much of the linguistic history should (once properly sourced) be moved to South Low Franconian, where it belongs; whereas this article should primarily focus on sociolinguistics and political status. Vlaemink (talk) 11:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Nobody criticizes Bakker. De Wikischim and I just don't think that this is a primary characteristic of "Limburgish". For virtually every not entirely counterfactual statement you will find a reliable source, whether you do a Google search to prove a point, or you provide one single source in order to apply so much weight to a statement based on it so that we simply must have it as a descriptor in the opening sentence of lede. "Distance" might be a secondary characteristic (and one that is often emphasized and exaggerated by language advocates) and can mentioned in the lede but not in the defining sentence, while "limited participation in the formation of Standard Dutch" is true (as for all varieties in the eastern part of the Low Countries) but not ledeworthy.

"Limburgish language movement" is a phrase something I have used out of hand, so we shouldn't use it literally. But with some genuine goodwill to listen and to accomodate constructive contributions by fellow editors like De Wikischim we can easily rephrase it to "efforts to gain official recognition as regional language". It's ironic that these efforts have run counter the agenda of a manifest secessionist language movement in a neighboring country (with known results). -–Austronesier (talk) 12:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I find it nonconstructive that you suggest that I purposely only provided a single source in order to push trough a particular POV, going on to compare this with doing a Google search to prove a point. That's not at all the case here. There's (at the moment) a single source stating this, yes, but the idea that the amount of sources is intentionally limited and aimed at pushing through a particular POV, is complete nonsense. In addition to this, you're misrepresenting my position, because I'm not at all hellbent on keeping this particular characteristic in the lead. However, I do feel there have to be, at the very least, several reputable sources who omit this characteristic in their definition or defining of ″Limburgish″ to support leaving it out. The fact that you think it isn't primary characteristic, is not enough, you have to argue for it based on literature.Vlaemink (talk) 13:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Not at all do I suggest that you "purposely only provided a single source". I merely stated that you only provide one single source. Call it "not a strong case", that's all. (For a piece of text you have added and then re-added three times. That looks quite hellbent when good practice suggests WP:BRD .) It is impossible to continue this discussion when one bad-faith assumption flies after another. –Austronesier (talk) 13:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

In your comment, you suggest that I've ″cherry picked″ a characteristic from one single source with the intention to apply so much weight to this as to force its inclusion in the lead. If that was not your intention, then you could have said this without further implying bad faith on my part. Vlaemink (talk) 14:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

P. 109: "Wat voor de politieke erkenning de doorslag gegeven heeft, is dat...." Bakker's statement does not serve to answer the question "Wat is Limburgs?", but explains the government's rationale to recognize Low Saxon and Limburgs as regional languages. Bakker describes in the first place that Limburgish simply exists as something recognizable for the collective of its speakers: "Hoewel ze de dialectverschillen goed horen, hebben Limburgers toch het gevoel dat ze allemaal ‘Limburgs’ spreken. [...] ‘Hét Limburgs’ bestaat dus niet, maar ‘Limburgs’ kennelijk wel." (But NB in his dissertation he presents other observations which show that the northernmost (=Kleverlandish) dialects fair somewhat differently under the "you speak your dialect and I speak mine"-test.) –Austronesier (talk) 16:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

And the quote is preceded by Net als taalkundigen vindt de politiek een eenheidstaal kennelijk geen absolute voorwaarde (translation: "Just like linguists, politicians believe that the presence of a uniform language is not a strict precondition [for a regional language to be recognized as such]"). De Wikischim (talk) 17:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I used Bakker (1997) to support the claim that a defining characteristic of Limburgish is that these dialects differ strongly from Standard Dutch and contributed little to its development. Whether this was or wasn't an argument for the Dutch government to support regional language status isn't relevant; it's a characteristic that Bakker clearly and explicitly ascribes to Limburgish. Do you you disagree with this reading? If so, why? Vlaemink (talk) 20:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Alternative classification as Middle/Central Franconian

Though the overall consensus is that Limburgish has its historical base in Low Franconian, some historical linguists have a somewhat nuanced view on this: [17], [18] ([..]Zuiver Oost-Frankisch heerscht: 1e. in het Land van Maas en Waal; 2e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van Noord-Brabant; 3e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van de prov. Antwerpen en (4e-6e) in het zoogenaamde mich-kwartier: 4e. het Oostelijk deel van Zuid-Brabant; 5e. Belgisch-Limburg; 6e. het grootste deel van Nederlandsch-Limburg, waar het dialect naar het Middel-Frankisch (Central Franconian languages) overhelt.; is this archaic Dutch text understandable enough for everyone here?)

I think it would be very worth adding this information to the "Classification and history" section (note: last year I made similar attempts to get this added to the corresponding article on the Dutch wiki, where it has been removed again, unfortunately). De Wikischim (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on these two sources (btw: do late 19th century texts really deem archaic to you? I've literally learned Dutch by reading Multatuli and linguistic texts about the Dutch East Indies from that period), this does not support an alternative classification as Central Franconian. Both speak of Central Franconian influence (or Limburg dialects leaning towards Central Franconian), and that's not what just some historical linguists, but is considered general wisdom. It is usually as an effect of the Keulse expansie in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, i.e. the radation of Ripuarian linguistic features into the southeastern part of the Low Franconian speech area as a result of the political dominance of Cologne.

But there are indeed some classifications in German dialectology that plainly assigns South Low Franconian (both in Limburg and the Rhineland) to Central Franconian and thus within the High German dialect landscape (most notable by Wiesinger), by taking the opposite view, i.e. South Low Franconian dialects are Ripurian dialects that increasingly acquire Low Franconian traits when you move further to the west and north. The common textbook view in B, D and NL however sees the Benrath line as the western/northern boundary of Central Franconian (and so does the Raod veur't Limburgs).

We have a bit about this in South_Low_Franconian#Classification already. I strongly opt for this article not simply to be a fork of South Low Franconian, but rather primary intended to talk about the recognized regional language (that's also what the ISO-code is for). Hence, we don't have to talk too much about classification here (especially when the northern part of Limburg tells a completely different story). But that's just me. I know there are other opinions, but contrary to what I've heard in the past days, it takes more than a 2:1 !vote to dance the WP consensus tango. –Austronesier (talk) 08:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree (among others based on your explanation about the view on this within German dialectology - thanks for that) that the Low Franconian and South Low Franconian articles are likely more suitable places for this sort of info. Yet I think it shouldn't be left completely unmentioned here either, as it serves among others to clarify the relationship of Limburgish to (Standard) Dutch (which is now discussed throughout this article in a rather vague/unclear/inconsistent manner, which I think will be of little or no use to common readers). De Wikischim (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is part of Vlaemink's and my point that this article overall does not a good job of explaining anything (much of which has to do with its advocacy-driven edit history), regardless of the question of what this article actually should explain. –Austronesier (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree there are more striking issues with the current, rather poor version. Just one example is the relatively long section about "Meuse Rhenish", which seems of little or even no importance here. It's nothing but a proposed alternative classification of a big regiolectal area (including even Kleve and further), not supported by many linguists and therefore violating Original Research Policy. De Wikischim (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: No, it wouldn't be possible to add this information to the ″Classification and history″ section, because the sources provided cannot be used to support what is being claimed:

• Both of these sources are outdated, being published in 1892 and 1901 respectively; and hence do not meet Wikipedia standards on reliable sources.
• Neither of these sources makes any claims about ″Limburgish″ not being Low Franconian, they do not discuss this issue:

1. When Wieger (1901) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the dialects in the southeast of Dutch Limburg are transitional — which is true.

2. When Leviticus (1892) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the language of the Middle Dutch Sente Servas-text is closely related to Middle Franconian — which is true.

On a meta note: The way these sources were provided is inherently faulty: you searched for limburgs nederfrankisch middelfrankisch overgangsdialect (″Limburgish Low Franconian Middle Franconian transitional dialect″) in Google books and, most likely, did the same with the DBNL-database. In other words: you are searching for what you want to find, instead of what you want to know, in addition to (erroneously) taking fragments or excerpts out of their broader context. The inherent problems with this method have been stated before [19]. Vlaemink (talk) 10:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Indeed, some publications use the Uerdingen instead of the more common Benrath isoglos, but as you've correctly stated the northward expansion of the first is a development from the High Middle Ages. This could be briefly explained in the article (if it isn't already), but would then also require explicit mentioning of the fact that Old East Dutch / Old East Low Franconian, did not have these characteristics. To me, this seems like a fairly minute and uncontroversial detail to be addressed later, after the article as a whole is in a far better shape than it is now. Vlaemink (talk) 10:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)