Talk:Clan Grant

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Comment

Was it Richard I of England who gave Kinveachy to Gilbert, 3rd Earl of Strathern? mat334 | talk 08:03, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the name

The origin of the name section really needs an overhaul. When I originally wrote the article for Clan Grant (back when it was under Grant) i had a complete history which explained various origin stories. The french one was present but more importantly was the Norse origin story. The French origin is HEAVILY disputed and should not be the single origin story in this article. Kilter 07:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grant Place/Person names

We should remove the content listing uses of 'Grant', due to all of this information being presented on Grant. Someone looking for those links will not be coming through this article any longer after the afrementioned disambiguation page was setup, and thus it is now just clogging up the current article.

I'll remove this information, replacing it with a link to Grant in some manner, within a week if there are no objections. Kilter 00:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Involvement in murder of the Earl of Moray

In the 16thC section, it's surprising to see a reference to the 1591/2 murder of the "bonnie earl o' Murray" (at Donibristle). At least, it appears to refer to that event, and attributes responsibility, in some vague, way to Grants. I've read the contemporary notices that were published listing those "wanted" for the killing - Gordons of Huntly, their relatives and allies - and don't see a single Grant name mentioned. Nor have I ever seen any other mention of Grant involvement. (Weeyk (talk) 11:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

DNA madness

An example of a DNA project gone wrong? Out of 192 kits tested, six are R1a. These six men are split into two groups - one group consisting of four men, the other consisting of two.[1] The project admins start off admitting that they were aiming for a 'Viking y-DNA signature', and the group of two men fitted their needs because "Kit #21365 is of a group (Haplogroup R1a1) known to be indicative of Norwegian Viking (as opposed to Danish Viking) origin when seen in men of deep British ancestry and this kit represents the candidate signature of this proto-Grant line".[2] One of the men from this group (Kit # 21365) can only trace his ancestry back to southern England in the 17th century.

And there's this gem from the project's FAQ (boldface mine): "One R1a signature in our project (Kit # 21365) shows a Central Asian motif whose origins coincide with the origin legends of a group of Scandinavians (Wodine and "The Aesir"), supposedly the descendants of those that fled Troy after the Trojan War. This group is said to have come from beyond the Ural mountain, across the Russian Steppes and the Baltic Sea, and settled in Norway (exactly as the original clan manuscripts say). In fact, Thor Heyerdahl, of "Kon-Tiki" fame, spent the remaining years of his life attempting to prove that a group of Scandinavians had such an origin - see this page for details of this Scandinavian legend. The DNA evidence in the Grant project lends evidence to support a Norse Viking origin for at least one line of the clan, as well as supporting the legend that Andrew Stewart married the Grant heiress in the early 14th century, thus changing the male line's Y-STR DNA signature."[3]

Two of 192 is only 0.010%! The amazing thing is that the ancestry of the singled out man only reaches back to England, and no earlier than the 17th century. Apparently DNA can "prove" that this man descends not only from the early 14th century chiefs of the clan, but also from Vikings, the mythical Æsir, and the Trojans who fled the Trojan War. It's amazing how in the right hands DNA can prove almost anything! I don't think the project website, all by itself, can be considered a reliable source for Wikipedia.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, all this does not surprise me. Very little can be learnt from DNA, the reason being that you need both the DNA of the ancestor as well as the descendant to prove a link. DNA does not survive long after death as it is not found in bones, nails or hair. Re the vikings: the tradition of burning the dead would not help matters, but some lucky finds of vikings have managed to give DNA from organic mater preserved in the teeth. In order to trace direct male viking ancestry, the candidates would need to be descended from one of the lucky finds. I think the companies marketing the DNA are taking liberties with peoples hopes and aspirations. What is more concrete, and turning out to also prove a point that has been raised by modern historians, is that DNA samples are noting that very few of the clansmen are actually related by male descendant within a clan, but rather form many small groups. This would seem to confirm that the clan is a territorial military grouping that shared resources and adopted common identifications (e.g. Name, mythology), rather than a family that has grown out of all proportions from one person. Many people mistakenly think that the mathematics of ancestry are one man has two sons, who in turn each have two sons, and these grandchildren each have two sons. Unfortunately it does not work like this, but rather follows the pattern of demography. e.g. the estimated population of Scotland in the Middle ages was about 500,000 to 1,000,000, now it is estimated to be just over 5,000,000, so there should be about 5 to 10 male descendants for every man born in about 1000. Naturally there is immigration both to and from Scotland to consider but this figure seems about right. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 10:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of those GRANTS in the FTDNA project, is said to be of the chief line. He has kit no 225600 Arthur Grant b 1683 Echt, Aberdeenshire. His DNA shows R1a North Western type, probably cluster II and L664+. There is another too, from the chief line testing North-Western R1a. I just wanted to tell that there are some people from the Trøndelag area (Trondheim) in Norway testing the same. Some of them papertrail their ancestry back to early 1600 - all the way in the Trøndelag area - where Haakon Ladejarl lived. The genetic distance between those from Trøndelag and this descendant of Arthur Grant, is around 1000-1200 years. Haakon Ladejarl had a lot of women. In the end, this was the cause of his death (read SNORRE). The Norman knight Maurice de PRENDERGAST's desendants have the same HG, so also a testing descendant of Rotrou Viscount de Chateaudun b.c. 1023 (FRANCE) and descendants of Sir Frances DRAKE http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?vgroup=R1a&vgroup=R1a&section=yresults Eaglestein (talk) 21:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Much of what's being discussed regarding the DNA is based from out-of-date websites (for example, the Admins lost access to the freepages.genealogy website long ago) or just bad info supplied by people not affiliated with the DNA project. I can say, as one of the Admins of the DNA Project, that a major update is in the works. In the meantime, https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/grant/about/background is probably the best source for DNA info current for the Clan. The Project includes several confirmed members of different branches of the family tree that includes the current Clan Chief, Corriemonie, Shuglie, Glenmoriston, MacRobie, Dalvey & Tullochgorm (for privacy concerns I cannot divulge their kit numbers or names at this time, but they are represented in Group A of the DNA results page). The Clan Chiefs are confirmed as haplogroup R-DF88, which is "downstream" of R-P312, and several other SNPs unique to other branches of this tree have also been discovered. But again, the criticisms above are 100% legit and, unfortunately because of the freepages site, difficult to remedy at this time. We will be directing people to a new site in the very near future that hopefully will be able to help. I welcome more feedback too - we want the info to be accurate, current, and reflect what the public is looking for. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.28.166 (talk) 17:46, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

A cerain IP user keeps on removing sourced info without discussing it first. You must discuss before removing sourced info. If you want to say that the Grants may have come from Ireland then you must quote a reliable source to verify it. Otherwise, if it is unsourced that information can be removed as per the rules of Wikipedia. I may be forced to consult an admin if he/she keeps on breaking the rules.QuintusPetillius (talk) 10:23, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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