Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom
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The Signpost (talk · chat) |
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Upcoming musical Humour page
[edit]I think including a satirical song about the ANI court case is a very bad idea. I understand the reasons for including it in News and Notes, but the Humour seems like it could easily be interpreted as mocking the court, which does not sound like a good idea. IANAL, but I don't think we should post that Humour page. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. I've already communicated similar concerns to JPxG for him to evaluate. It also might be a copyright violation [1]. Svampesky (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I highly doubt that this is a copyright issue, but at any rate it seems highly inadvisable. Firstly, as it includes stuff written in a language the author does not speak, aimed derisively towards people who do speak said language. Secondly, as it involves AI in some way, which means that it will cause people to mald -- nay, to norwood -- if it is published. Thirdly, because it seems to be a deliberate attempt at provocation that does not bring any useful benefit to us -- if this gets deleted, which it obviously will, and I am forced to come up with some convoluted way of hosting it offwiki (a thing which we have never actually done before), the person who gets nasty letters and an ANI thread over it is me, which I am willing to do for reporting that actually serves the public interest, and maybe even for a joke that is funny, but this is neither of those things. jp×g🗯️ 17:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- Censorship is a very serious matter. It is contrary to Wikimedia positions on human rights, freedom of the press, and access to knowledge. The Indian courts are incorrectly treating censorship lightly in this matter. It may not be authoritarian or fascist in this case, but it is an error, an encroachment of community rights, contrary to Wikimedia values, and encouraging to any authoritarian, fascist, or ill-meaning others who now have an example which demonstrates success in censoring Wikipedia.
- One correct reaction to this kind of oppression is humor. The correct kind of humor may not be the humor that I demonstrated from AI, but humor is an appropriate response.
- The worst possible response is lack of reaction. @QuicoleJR and Svampesky: for the reasons you state, my attempt at humor missed the mark, but please support the use of humor and invite other kinds of responses to censorship. Please help by soliciting other kinds of responses as you can. If you can imagine any kind of humorous response which you could support, then describe it to the extent of your ability. I am doing what I can to recruit other contributors to this next issue, and I take the censorship very seriously. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry: I like the current content on the Humor page. I think it is an effective way to poke fun at the court order without causing any major problems, and it is also pretty funny. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- feedback about humor from editor in India: use humor that has the Wikimedia community poking fun at both the Wikimedia Foundation, and the Indian courts. This clarifies that Wikimedia community and Wikimedia Foundation are not the same. Also it raises light that the Wikimedia community in India has serious complaints about Wikimedia Foundation and has its own set of unanswered requests, which the Wikimedia community supports. Among the complaints: Wikimedians in India want the Wikimedia Foundation to not encroach in community growth in India, and to leave the community in India to speak for itself rather than relying on WMF for statements to media, etc. Having a humorous statement from someone outside of India can be ideal because people in India may not feel comfortable using humor, even if they want to do so, but people in India would give feedback and comments if asked. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Idea: That Ambox is humorous. Run that instead, and change the newsroom discussion link to take out the link to this section, making it general. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- +1, that notice was quite funny. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
20:15
[edit]The solution to the various issues that've been raised is for someone to contact the WMF directly to clarify what The Signpost can and can't/shouldn't publish on WMF servers (either by email or on a public forum), and if publishing off-site is allowed, as it will still be under the Signpost/Wikipedia/Wikimedia branding. Svampesky (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- First, we should operate as normal. Until and unless WMF Office takes an official Office action, it's both the simplest and most straightforward thing to do. And if it does take action, WMF has absolutely zero say on what happens off site, and we can just keep the story on the Signpost mirror. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I recommend that JPxG consult with the WMF and keep them updated on the next issue drafts before publication, especially if this could potentially escalate into a legal matter. I don't know how the WMF should be contacted for these kind of potential legal matters, but I assume JPxG is already familiar with the process. Who actually owns the Signpost branding, and would it count as an extension of Wikimedia to publish it off-site under this branding (in a legal context)? Svampesky (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't recommend that JPxG go around and ask if anybody wants to censor us. If they have any recommendations they can come to us. I certainly wouldn't recommend that he submit stories for pre-publication approval/censorship. If they want or need to censor us - that's up to them. But submitting to it as if we are their employees or serfs would be way over the line. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- No one owns the Signpost branding, and the WMF has zero say in what the community does, both on and off wiki. The only time the WMF has "a say" in anything is when it is legally required by law/courts to do something, as described in WP:OFFICE. And, unless the Signpost engages in copyright violations, systematic harassment, other forms of unprotected speech (privacy violations, defamation, etc...), or dumb-ass trollery (like re-publishing the contents of the WMF-blanked page), the WMF will have no business interfering with anything we do, unless ordered by courts. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- I recommend that JPxG consult with the WMF and keep them updated on the next issue drafts before publication, especially if this could potentially escalate into a legal matter. I don't know how the WMF should be contacted for these kind of potential legal matters, but I assume JPxG is already familiar with the process. Who actually owns the Signpost branding, and would it count as an extension of Wikimedia to publish it off-site under this branding (in a legal context)? Svampesky (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- There is no option to communicate with the Wikimedia Foundation @Svampesky: It would be a huge help if you could author a submission which described how you imagine The Signpost could contact the Wikimedia Foundation, what sort of support you imagine they would consider offering, and how you imagine this relationship works.
- In my view, a major reason why this censorship is happening at all is because the court in India - and much of the world - incorrectly assumes that the Wikimedia Foundation has editorial input and interaction with the content on Wikipedia. I would like to address this notion intensely and directly in the next issues of The Signpost. The reality that is see is that Wikimedia community members - including our on-wiki roles for administrators, stewards, checkusers, bureaucrats, Arbitration Committee members, and our off-wiki roles for Wikimedia chapters, outreach coordinators, grant recipients, and the rest - all completely lack any relationship with the Wikimedia Foundation which involves editorial oversight or advice.
- Svampesky, you are not wrong for asking, but please sound any alarms you can find and call over anyone in authority whom you believe may see otherwise. Not only is there no editorial relationship between community journalism like The Signpost and the Wikimedia Foundation, but also, it is fundamental to Wikimedia community values and journalistic ethics that there never be any such relationship.
- A great line of discourse to explore is the extent of the Wikimedia Foundation's commitment to hosting community journalism. The Signpost advocates for the Wikimedia community of editors and the users, whereas the Wikimedia Foundation has another mission, other values, and other priorities. The two are not the same. I believe that the Wikimedia Foundation's values include a commitment to hosting The Signpost in the Wikipedia platform, but that could be explored and discussed.
- Svampesky - to be clear - I am unaware of anyone in the Wikimedia community with whom the Wikimedia Foundation would be willing to discuss the topic you raise. I do not think any such person or role exists. I think it is a misunderstanding to imagine that the Wikimedia Foundation would agree to discuss the topic you raise with the Wikimedia community. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies for the single-sentence response to your comment, but my recommendation is that JPxG email the appropriate WMF staff member to ensure that anything published on its servers won't violate the court order. Svampesky (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky and Bluerasberry:. We're supposed to be covering these folks - reporting on what they do wrong as well as what they do right. This includes WMF employees such as folks in communications, legal, on the board, even the ceo. And it also applies to admins and arbs. Feel free to ask these folks about facts (try not to ask about things that you *know* that they can't answer or ask about very time consuming but trival matters - you'll have to sometimes ask about serious matters and they should be able to take you seriously). It's quite natural to communicate with them, but it's absolutely wrong to ask around to see if they want to censor you. @JPxG: seems to be handling this very well. Trust him. Ask him questions (usually in private if they are very serious) or ask your Signpost colleagues. But never ask around to see if somebody wants to censor you - on any important story somebody will - and then you put your self and The Signpost in a false position if you and the E-I-C decide it needs to be published. You'll have some input, but ultimately it is not your call. Your call is to find the facts, triple check them, find out the E-i-C's view on sensitive stories, and write it up to publish if they want it. We usually want all the factual stories we can get, but some stories can have unintended consequences if we publish. That is the E-i-C's call. And never ask anybody to censor you. Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just slightly surprised (!) but it looks like we have a "From the editors" article that I can support. Of course I made a few changes, but it doesn't change the meaning. @Bri, HaeB, and JPxG: and those who have contributed here before (all 579 or so), please sign on as authors. And it should be "From the editors" not "From the editor". And @Blue Rasberry: could you change the illustration to read "Editing Wikipedia (line break) should not be a crime"? Perhaps one point where people might disagree with me - I've just avoided using the word "right" as in "God-given right" or "Natural right". I do believe in "natural rights" in a very simple way - if I got to do something to protect my life (or things needed to protect my life like communicating freely), I'm going to do it and everybody who disagrees better step back. The same as I reserve my ability to do this, I should respect others who do the same. Sometimes people who throw around the word "rights" tend to get away from the basics. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's a good "from the..." piece, and I signed it. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry, @Smallbones, @Bri: Now that revisions of the Technology report have been suppressed and the image removed by an Oversighter, the line
We have been an independent newspaper for almost two decades
should probably be slightly amended to something likeWe have been an independent newspaper for almost two decades; but we are limited to English Wikipedia policies while we are hosted on the site
. This will explain to the reader why The Signpost isn't allowed to report on some things, so we don't get accused of censorship. Svampesky (talk) 13:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies for the single-sentence response to your comment, but my recommendation is that JPxG email the appropriate WMF staff member to ensure that anything published on its servers won't violate the court order. Svampesky (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
20:15 publishing this weekend is imperative
[edit]Since many of us are U.S. based, I think it would be a really Good Thing to finish publication before the 2024 United States elections happening on Tuesday. There's going to be plenty of distraction then, and potentially a push to include more timely content that would end up delaying publication. @JPxG: what do you say? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- I am keen on publishing this weekend before the US elections. Bluerasberry (talk) 02:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not JPxG, but I concur heartily with Bri. If we have 4 or more articles in a fairly complete state by Friday, we should publish what we have by Sunday night. There's always some excuse not to publish on deadline, but let's make an absolute commitment to publish by noon Monday, come hell or high water. It looks like we'll have more than 3 articles ready, but if not - we just don't publish until the next Sunday. Dragging it out never works. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Night shift has got my clock cycles confused, and I was going to copyedit everything today, but my landlord showed up with a guy to install a new dryer vent with no warning directly the fuck in the middle of me sleeping a few hours ago, so I am running on about three hours of sleep tonight and I need to leave in a couple hours to go stack damn boxes until 8am again. There is no possible situation where I hit publish in the next three hours, Sunday is the absolute earliest that this can happen -- I am going to try to go back to bed. jp×g🗯️ 00:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am not going to be able to provide much in the way of usefulness today. I cannot go into further detail. I will try to look over and give feedback during my shift. jp×g🗯️ 17:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am approximately done with my submissions but not in a rush to get this published, although sooner is better. I prefer to wait until we have reasonable editorial process complete. I take responsibility for my own submissions, but take some time to sleep and be a biological creature. Publishing in a few days would not be a tragedy or untimely, even if that US presidential election is going to be a major distraction. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am not going to be able to provide much in the way of usefulness today. I cannot go into further detail. I will try to look over and give feedback during my shift. jp×g🗯️ 17:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
News and notes
[edit]I'm inclined not to include in this issue a community ban of a 10+ year editor, that resulted from bad behavior at RfAs. It doesn't seem to be related to the new elections process, just everyday bad behavior. Bringing it up here in case it merits more discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- With this, I would oppose reporting on editors who have been community banned. Since they won't have the opportunity to respond, and reaching out to them for comment and publishing that comment could be seen as The Signpost undermining the community's decision. If they have been blocked for a week, then I wouldn't oppose as long as it's published after their block has ended. These are my initial thoughts, and would participate in a wider discussion about how The Signpost should handle this in the future. Svampesky (talk) 16:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Traffic report
[edit]There were several "#19"s in the TOP25 report which obviously goes to 10 in our slimmed-down edition. I've done my best rewording it, not wanting to give either candidate undue attention or criticism but I'm stuck on the last one. I would have said "if the former President is returned to office" instead of in the case of #19 winning the election
– but this undermines the author's thesis that a new era of American fascism would result were he elected next week, which kind of makes it look like we don't know that he was already president for four years. Anyway. Go for it. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Writing deadline
[edit]Just noting here, the writing deadline has passed for this issue, and major new content should not be coming in at this point, in order to stay on schedule. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @JPxG, Bri, Blue Rasberry, and HaeB: This issue is a mess so far. I will have about 4 items to put in In the media which will be done by midnight tonight. The rest of the issue has a split personality problem. There's no consensus among Signpost staffers what to do about the Indian situation, BR is ploughing straight ahead with a no holds barred condemnation, JPxG seems to agree that Jimbo has the right idea and we should be non-confrontational (but still mention the problem briefly on our own initiative). I'm going to recheck my understanding by rereading the above discussions and getting back. But without hearing any guidance from the E-I-C, I'll be tempted to remove at least half of the more confrontational material tomorrow morning to make sure that we have some issue that could be published without contradicting ourselves, and replace at least some of the removed material with new stuff. Let's get our act together here! Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- I reread all the discussion above (since the last issue) and my understanding of our individual POVs remains. They are essentially contradictory. I do think @JPxG: does need to clearly state how he intends us to put out a non-self-contradictory issue. Key issue: confrontational or non-confrontational. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Smallbones: I will finish my editing by end of day today. My approach is no negativity and no attacks, but yes, I am making the case that Wikipedia editors are not to be attacked by corporations and yes Wikipedia is not to be censored. If I say "do not attack Wikipedia", then no one should take that as personal condemnation. I will check the text and yes please, I would greatly appreciate you double-checking it for tone in the way you describe tomorrow morning. Bluerasberry (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/From_the_editor ready for copyedit and sanity check
- I need more time for the rest, will be on it Sat 2 Nov morning till done. I know it is urgent. I am up to date on the story and just want to close out what I started. Bluerasberry (talk) 01:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/Technology_report ready for copyedit Bluerasberry (talk) 13:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. I wasn't planning to be involved in this issue (apart from doing the socials after publication, as always). However, if we need to fall back to the kind of EiC absence procedures that were already used a couple of times in the last few years in order to get a delayed issue over the finish line (with e.g. Bri taking on the responsibility again to enact the final button press and run the publication script, as he already did several times over the last two years), I could conceivably chip in a bit by reviewing and approving locum tenens some of the sections without original India-related reporting, namely ITM, Gallery and Traffic report. (Generally, in such cases that should IMO be done by longtime Signpost team members who were ideally not involved with the story in question or are at least not on the byline.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 01:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry, I plan to provide more detailed feedback later since I didn't contribute any writing to this issue. My initial concern is with the From the editor column, which includes an image that says, "Editing Wikipedia is not a crime." This misrepresents the current situation. While editing Wikipedia isn't illegal, the case is about allegations of defamation; which would be a crime. I want to clarify that I'm not expressing an opinion on whether defamation occurred because I'm not fully familiar with the details of the case, the Indian legal system, or Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Svampesky (talk) 14:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky: Great feedback. Would you be more comfortable if this moved from "from the editor" to an op-ed from me, or some other kind of section heading?
- I interpret the Wikipedia community discussion as consensus that there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the Wikipedia editing which happened in that article. It is maximally examined, and that examination produced no outstanding complaints about the Wikipedia editorial process or its outputs. I am reading the room, and if there is defamation in this article, then my interpretation is that the accusation is that Wikipedia's process of summarizing and citing third-party reliable journalism is fundamentally defamation. I am calling that out as an error, and in that context, "Editing Wikipedia is not a crime". There is such a thing as shared objective truth and it is okay for us to interpret that. I see no complexity in this evaluation. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I suggest rephrasing it to something like,. The reliability of sources used on Wikipedia is determined internally by its contributors, which means that just because Wikipedia considers a source reliable, it doesn't mean it's objectively reliable outside of Wikipedia. Svampesky (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)referencing independent sources is not a crime
, without using the wordreliable
- I struck my comment, as repeating a defamatory statement is considered a crime (even if done accidentally) in some places, and I'm not sure about the specifics of the ongoing case. Svampesky (talk) 15:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky: I am quite ignorant. I do not know what legal consequences there may be to my journalism. I take responsibility for this; this is not on you. Whether you read the text in this link or not, do you have any comment on me attempting to post the defamatory statements here, which I did?
- There is a specific question and answer there about "what is the defamatory text". Bluerasberry (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert in legal matters—and this shouldn't be read as scaremongering—but my advice is to proceed with absolute caution. From what I understand, the court in India ordered the takedown of
a page published on the website ‘Wikipedia’
which discussed the case File:October 16 2024 ANI v Wikimedia order.pdf, and the Wikimedia Foundation complied. In my non-expert opinion, this appears to function like a cease-and-desist order against discussing the case on Wikimedia servers. If you were to republish details about the case, on Wikimedia servers, it might constitute a violation of this 'cease-and-desist' and could result in you becoming a party to the case. Svampesky (talk) 17:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)- @Svampesky: I do not have access to a lawyer and my role here is as volunteer Wikipedia journalist. I certainly do not want to harm the Wikipedia community, The Signpost, or the Wikimedia Foundation. Speaking for myself, I am a white United States male who researches Wikipedia professionally at a university. I am exactly the kind of person who is ideal to take the risk of being a target for a lawsuit. It has become apparent to me in talking with editors in India that they are highly fearful to comment on this case or express themselves openly. My fellow editors in the United States also wish to avoid being targeted in a lawsuit. I do not have personal finances to address a lawsuit, but I am better positioned than most people to receive wiki criticism because I already routinely experience insane Wikipedia stalking as an organizer for WikiConference North America, LGBTQ and Wikipedia and Wikimedia community outreach through Wikimedia New York City and similar. I do not want harassment but I am simply better positioned than a lot of other people to speak for Wikimedia community interests in The Signpost. Among other protections, I have a mental health counselor whom I meet regularly and with whom I discuss only Wikimedia harassment. Counseling is a necessary expense of being a Wikipedian in residence. I can carry journalism and messages to publication as an editor for other Wikipedians who cannot take such risks. I appreciate and accept your concern.
- I welcome and invite the Wikimedia Foundation to delete any of this journalism if it is inappropriate. As I said in the editorial I wrote, neither I nor anyone I know has a communication channel to ask if our host might need to censor this story. I mean well in writing it and am not trying to be provocative or confrontational. This is just journalism that needs to happen. Bluerasberry (talk) 18:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- How does
I am a white United States male who researches Wikipedia professionally at a university. I am exactly the kind of person who is ideal to take the risk of being a target for a lawsuit
have any relevance to this discussion? Nonetheless, as this involves active litigation, my advice is to exercise extreme caution. There is no deadline, and The Signpost can always report about it—on Wikimedia servers—after the case has concluded. Svampesky (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC) - I also want to say that I hope my pre-publication feedback helps to avoid any Wikimedia harassment, as the concerns I've mentioned might've been widely discussed in the comment sections once they're published. Svampesky (talk) 19:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky: Yes, right, if this case were the target of a lawsuit, the subject of newspaper journalism, or some student's thesis in anthropology, then our dialogue would be studied and considered as representative of the usual Wikipedia editorial diligence.
- Ah, women are super harassed and stalked for being public figures in Wikipedia. Non-white people in the United States who are public spokespeople for Wikipedia get extra criticism. As an American, I am in a World Bank high-income economy so I am surrounded by social and technical infrastructure which makes countless positive things happen to me without me trying get them. In contrast many Indian people are in a LMIC, so for example, they typically do not have random stranger professionals familiar with technology conflict who come to them with solutions. Those people spontaneously contact me. There are 1000 things that can go wrong with posting journalism here and a major part of success which resolves 100s of those problems is simply my demographic. My dharma is to play this role into which I was born.
- For example, a woman could do this of course, but she absolutely would face sexual and gender based harassment for publishing the same content which I am submitting. A person in India could have done it, but they would be much more likely to be a lawsuit target. I do not exactly want to be the center of all this but I am looking around, wondering who can do this, and just feeling like "We need to be the change we wish to see in the world". Bluerasberry (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I understand that, but I wasn't talking about cyber-stalking or harassment, I'm talking about the court order. If the court ordered a takedown of
a page published on the website ‘Wikipedia’
that discussed the case—and the WMF complied—my advice is to not have a newpage published on the website ‘Wikipedia’
that discusses the case. I'm saying that if the court becomes aware of this page, I doubt they would check your race, nationality, or gender before considering it a violation of the court order. Svampesky (talk) 19:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)- @Svampesky: At the behest of Wikipedia editors and Wikimedia community consensus, The Signpost is prepared to leave the Wikimedia platform to publish at https://signpost.news/ which is active right now. Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2023-08-31/From_the_editor has details on this. It would change a lot to move The Signpost outside of the Wikimedia platform, and to separate it from Wikimedia content and the Wikimedia community. The option to do so and that working prototype is there to support people in having the conversation about whether to ask The Signpost to leave. It is there to demonstrate that the option to leave is in consideration, and that The Signpost remains here welcome with support from the Wikimedia community. There is no misunderstanding about The Signpost's scope of journalism coverage having an invitation to exist here. There is no standing volunteer community editorial request for The Signpost to leave, or change its scope of journalism. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry, it should be made clear that signpost.news is a mirror site set up to pull and display content from Wikipedia URLs with a different web theme. It doesn't host any content itself. I had a look into how signpost.news works and found that it is hosted on Wikimedia servers on wikitech:Portal:Toolforge, as the signpost.news domain just masks over signpost.toolforge.org. Svampesky (talk) 15:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky: At the behest of Wikipedia editors and Wikimedia community consensus, The Signpost is prepared to leave the Wikimedia platform to publish at https://signpost.news/ which is active right now. Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2023-08-31/From_the_editor has details on this. It would change a lot to move The Signpost outside of the Wikimedia platform, and to separate it from Wikimedia content and the Wikimedia community. The option to do so and that working prototype is there to support people in having the conversation about whether to ask The Signpost to leave. It is there to demonstrate that the option to leave is in consideration, and that The Signpost remains here welcome with support from the Wikimedia community. There is no misunderstanding about The Signpost's scope of journalism coverage having an invitation to exist here. There is no standing volunteer community editorial request for The Signpost to leave, or change its scope of journalism. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- I understand that, but I wasn't talking about cyber-stalking or harassment, I'm talking about the court order. If the court ordered a takedown of
- How does
- The WMF lawyers are adept in their craft. If they felt any restrictions were necessary, they would let the community know. isaacl (talk) 21:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- Do you think the WMF, and its legal department, have shown that they care about the well-being and legal-safety of editors? Svampesky (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- To answer your question, yes, given that it has a legal defense fund for editors. But it's also a separate issue from your expressed concern, which was regarding a court order to the WMF on taking down certain content. The WMF is responsible for this, and so its lawyers will do what's necessary to protect the WMF's interest, including communicating to the community about any restrictions they feel are necessary. isaacl (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Am I missing something? The WMF will remove pages due to the court order, but have made it clear that it is not involved in the editorial content on Wikipedia. This means that the WMF won't stop pages that violate the court order from being
published on the website ‘Wikipedia’
, but they will take them down if requested. As a result, the editors who created the page would become parties to the case for violating the court order. My advice for the past day-or-so has been to contact the WMF for advice to protect editors from this happening. Svampesky (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)- A third-party can't violate a court order issued to someone else. You have to be issued a court order in order to violate it. Apart from the court order, it's true that a Signpost editor might make an edit in violation of Indian law, and thus become at risk to be identified and served with a court order or prosecuted. I agree editors should take this into consideration when they decide what edits they are willing to make. isaacl (talk) 18:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Am I missing something? The WMF will remove pages due to the court order, but have made it clear that it is not involved in the editorial content on Wikipedia. This means that the WMF won't stop pages that violate the court order from being
- To answer your question, yes, given that it has a legal defense fund for editors. But it's also a separate issue from your expressed concern, which was regarding a court order to the WMF on taking down certain content. The WMF is responsible for this, and so its lawyers will do what's necessary to protect the WMF's interest, including communicating to the community about any restrictions they feel are necessary. isaacl (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Do you think the WMF, and its legal department, have shown that they care about the well-being and legal-safety of editors? Svampesky (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert in legal matters—and this shouldn't be read as scaremongering—but my advice is to proceed with absolute caution. From what I understand, the court in India ordered the takedown of
- I struck my comment, as repeating a defamatory statement is considered a crime (even if done accidentally) in some places, and I'm not sure about the specifics of the ongoing case. Svampesky (talk) 15:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Lane done with content
[edit]I felt strongly about this issue and I routinely report on Wikimedia issues in India. I am done with major content contributions to this issue. My submissions are marked ready for copyedit. I am at hand for revisions, critiques, and changes. I welcome anyone to edit anything I submitted, including substantially, to get out whatever has Signpost editorial consensus or support as a community view. Here are my submissions-
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/In focus, the Q&A
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Special report, the prose narrative
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Technology report, review of specific Wikipedia tech which plays into this story
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes, regular column, links to Wikipedia community discussions and WMF statements
- Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/From the editor, essay on editorial independence and answer to calls that we seek permission from WMF to publish
Bluerasberry (talk) 18:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Book report
[edit]I just noticed we have another new, unreviewed, review of The Editors at the submissions page. I will format it up, link it from the Article status list, and leave it standing. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
It is posted at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Book review.☆ Bri (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)- I am an idiot. This text was included in issue 14. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
news from India is confusing
[edit]- Times of India
- The Indian Express "Centre issues notice to Wikipedia, asks why it should be treated as intermediary and not publisher"
These are to me the most understandable articles about a new action by "the Centre", but they still don't make a lot of sense. As I understand it a) the government (aka The Centre) believes that the Wikipedia model of individual editors is "dangerous", but that a powerful group (admins?) control what's on Wikipedia, so the WMF is in control of article content, so they lose claims to being just an intermediary, and are open to claims of libel. No that doesn't make any sense to me, but ...
@JPxG, Blue Rasberry, HaeB, and Bri:, I'll put a series of links below for anybody who wants to make sense of it. They are now 10-12 hours old. What to do? Maybe? Just pull all our India related stories - they just don't make sense anymore.
Then publish the 5 or so articles we do have immediately. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Several judges in the Delhi court has commented on WP, one of them said "dangerous". Now the government has also commented on WP, but that is a separate (well) issue from what the court says. That's my understanding. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think waiting on the India news is the right decision, unless our coverage is hopelessly garbled – and I don't believe that is the case. Better to get what we have in front of the community, to get discussion and awareness going. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at this a little harder, are these all based on ANI claiming to have inside information on the matter, without any reference to the supposed government warning letter?? I haven't seen any copy of the letter, and this source does say that it's ANI claiming to have sources. This might all be rehashing a single X post by ANI. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
recent India press
[edit]- NDTV - standard story, next hearing Wednesday
- M9 news
- Economic Times not much here.
- Business Standard, starting to look like it's all from the same press release. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- The Hindu a bit different, cites article about [YouTube summary]
Are we going to publish?
[edit]@JPxG, Blue Raspberry, HaeB, and Bri:
JPxG I think it is imperative that you make and implement a decision ASAP. I don't disagree with Bri above. I do disagree with doing nothing. One option:Get a 3-4 line notice to put on all India related Signpost articles in this issue, and then publish immediately. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
@Blue Rasberry and Gråbergs Gråa Sång: - I looked but couldn't find anybody on Wiki that is discussing the new articles. Maybe it would help to refer to them if they exist. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I think that what we have now is basically defensible, so I am going to publish, although I think next time I am sick and also working I am just going to ask someone else to run it!!! jp×g🗯️ 08:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Former Arb is saying goodbye
[edit]Just saw this. Don't know what else to say here. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
20:15 wrapup and feedback
[edit]First, great job to everyone who contributed, writing, copyediting, editing, publishing -- everything you do matters, and I think what we put in this issue is something to be proud of, even if as always we think we could do better with more time.
I created my usual feedback link here and noticed that the early feedback is on the "non-core" columns (Humour, Gallery, In focus, Technology report), not sure what that means. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- I heartily second @Bri:'s "great job" (above), and I'd like to especially mention @Blue Rasberry:. Quite often the most difficult stories to cover are the most important stories to cover. Congrats to all! Now there is an exploding whale story that's breaking and I'm looking for the right Wikipedia angle for it. But that's really not important. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Did you mention that because you knew it was a Signpost WikiWorld in 2007? Of course, congrats to Lane, who not just put together a lot of really important content from online sources, but did some interviews and made contacts that maybe he'll tell us more about. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- I third Bri's "great job". This was a really important issue, and the friction in the newsroom leading up to publication was because of how important it was that The Signpost got this one right. I share the sentiment of Risker's comment, which is why I took a step back. Svampesky (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 Arbitration report and In the media
[edit]We might need an Arbitration report in the upcoming issue. Here is the opening statement in a new case request.
There is ongoing coordination of off-wiki editors for the purpose of promoting a pro-Palestinian POV, utilizing a discord group, as well as an EEML-style mailing list (Private Evidence A).
A significant participant in the discord group, as well as the founder of the mailing list (Private Evidence B), is a community banned editor (Private Evidence C), who since being banned has engaged in the harassment and outing of Wikipedia editors (Private Evidence D). This individual has substantial reach (Private Evidence E), and their list appears to have been joined by a substantial number of editors, although I am only confident of the identify of three.
The Discord group was previously public, but has now transitioned to a private form in order to better hide their activities (Private Evidence F). It is not compliant with policy, being used to organize non-ECP editors to make edits within the topic area, some of whom have now become extended-confirmed through these violations. In addition, it is used by the community-banned editor to make edit requests, edit requests that are acted upon (Private Evidence G).
If the arbs accept the case, this means the private evidence was compelling. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Possibly (probably) related: https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative this may be about the off-wiki coordination that the case opener refers to. Pirate Wires says In dozens of cases, the group's edits [on ARBPIA articles] account for upwards of 90% of the content on an article, giving them complete control of the topics.
I don't think The Signpost has covered this at In the media and it seems newsworthy to me. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oh boy, one of our Signpost pieces is listed in a "to-do list" screenshot included in Pirate Wires. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bri: Please send me a link or the screenshot. You might have noticed that I don't do Israel-Palestine stories. The whole topic is just beyond me, as in I empathize with and disagree with everything all three sides do in the matter. In fact I haven't even figured out who or what the 3 sides are. You're on your own on this! Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Smallbones: See Special:Diff/1253862786 which helps explain the odd namespaces/article histories involved. It's easy to mistake an investigator for part of the TfP group if you don't see this. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bri: Please send me a link or the screenshot. You might have noticed that I don't do Israel-Palestine stories. The whole topic is just beyond me, as in I empathize with and disagree with everything all three sides do in the matter. In fact I haven't even figured out who or what the 3 sides are. You're on your own on this! Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding the ITM item, see also a discussion in the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group with some possibly useful context and links (in particular, regarding the paywall, someone noted there that
I think you can circumvent the paywall by just using incognito mode and visiting via the Twitter link, but in any case there's a free copy here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BeneiYisraelNews/comments/1gbrqr5/soft_paywall_how_wikipedias_prohamas_editors/
- although the former doesn't seem to work for me). - Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Update: there are 5 votes to decline the case and zero to accept. This will certainly get dumped. Still, it might be worth a brief note somewhere that the request happened, and there was a lot of community pushback against a case with so much off-wiki private evidence. Opinions on covering this at News and notes? ☆ Bri (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Agrees, seems worth covering with a brief explanation that helps readers understand why it was filed and was (or will likely be) declined. Regards, HaeB (talk) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Open letter
[edit]An open letter has been created regarding the ongoing case in India. It might be worth mentioning in News and Notes if it gets a lot of signatures. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- I would support having this published—either by moving the page to The Signpost or transcluding the page into the report, to avoid having multiple places where people can sign—in 'Community view' with no commentary; just the letter and the signatures, nothing else. Svampesky (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree with moving a community page to be part of the Signpost. The letter is not a Signpost initiative. isaacl (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Transclusion with link to sign it is a more appropriate option. Svampesky (talk) 17:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- We've got 9 days until the next deadline, so we can wait on this to see what happens. The stress of putting out a quality paper every 2-3 weeks is enough for me. At best somebody should just note on a Signpost article talk page that the page exists and link it. I've thought about putting out one "Daily update" page as part of the overall Signpost, but it would be very difficult to do properly and to staff it. Otherwise, wait 9 days! Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- The most signed petition in Wikimedia history is meta:Community_open_letter_on_renaming, barring the Wikimedia Foundation from renaming itself to "Wikipedia". That one has 1015 signatures and ran for months. This petition currently has 930 signatures and has been up a week. It is shaping up to be the strongest community consensus statement yet. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- We've got 9 days until the next deadline, so we can wait on this to see what happens. The stress of putting out a quality paper every 2-3 weeks is enough for me. At best somebody should just note on a Signpost article talk page that the page exists and link it. I've thought about putting out one "Daily update" page as part of the overall Signpost, but it would be very difficult to do properly and to staff it. Otherwise, wait 9 days! Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- Transclusion with link to sign it is a more appropriate option. Svampesky (talk) 17:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree with moving a community page to be part of the Signpost. The letter is not a Signpost initiative. isaacl (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I've borrowed the text here by QuicoleJR and Bluerasberry to start an item at News and notes. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
Submission
[edit]How would I submit an Wikipedia signpost issue, which is specifically a crossword puzzle?I already put my submission on the page. Spongebob796 (talk) 12:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 Recent research
[edit]As usual, we are preparing this regular survey on recent academic research about Wikipedia, doubling as the Wikimedia Research Newsletter (now in its fourteenth year). Help is welcome to review or summarize the many interesting items listed here, as are suggestions of other new research papers that haven't been covered yet. Regards, HaeB (talk) 02:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- We have a golden opportunity to include "spinach and llamas" in the blurb. Maybe?? ☆ Bri (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 Traffic report
[edit]@Igordebraga: Not to be super nit picky, but was "Oh, sweet mystery of life at last I've found you!" Teri Garr's line in Young Frankenstein, or Madeline Kahn's? Or both? My memory fails me. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Khan says it first, Garr says it later. igordebraga ≠ 16:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Ahh, yes, at first I thought it was just Khan, but then a fuzzy memory of the repetition came to mind. Thanks! I need to see that again (and again and again). ☆ Bri (talk) 16:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Elections, Arab Americans
[edit]@Igordebraga: Please consider: regarding this edit, should "the Muslim community" be the only descriptive term for certain voters, used in the most edited articles? Arab Americans are majority Christian. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- @JPxG: For your awareness, this passage has not been changed. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- I typically copyedit the traffic report with kevlar gloves on anyway, so this will be addressed. jp×g🗯️ 22:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 In the media
[edit]Help wanted! I really don't want to be the only editor on this. Especially for the "genocide RfC" item, it's hard for me to present some of these issues neutrally. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.factsandlogic.org/wikipedias-anti-israel-bias-undermines-objectivity-and-credibility/ (Facts and Logic About the Middle East, syndicated by Jewish News Syndicate)
- https://aish.com/weaponizing-wikipedia-against-israel/ (Aish HaTorah)
- https://www.palestinechronicle.com/after-months-of-debate-wikipedia-describes-israels-war-on-gaza-as-genocide/ (Palestine Chronicle)
- https://www.saba.ye/en/news3393979.htm (Yemen News Agency aka SABA)
- "Wikipedia officially adds 'Gaza Genocide' to list of genocide page" The Siasat Daily
I'm dumping some links here for people to consider whether they belong in the upcoming issue. These came up in a Google News search. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 Opinion
[edit]Reserved. Unreserved. Svampesky (talk) 11:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky: Thanks for contributing. Please be advised the writing deadline is less than 30 hours from now. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've been really busy with IRL commitments, but I had reserved the column for someone else, who has since withdrawn their submission. Svampesky (talk) 20:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 writing deadline
[edit]Writing deadline is in about 30 minutes. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- Looking a little thin for this issue, although publishable. I have some dust bunnies I can put into an Opinion or Humour, which gives us what, five or six? jp×g🗯️ 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- Also there is a submission. jp×g🗯️ 07:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I will be back in a few hours and able to run. jp×g🗯️ 11:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, well, there is a big goofy thing about the joke column. I think it is condign that, if stuff is submitted after the writing deadline and tehre is disagreement about it in the newsroom, the issue cannot be held up on its account, and we can sort it out afterwards. jp×g🗯️ 23:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- I will be back in a few hours and able to run. jp×g🗯️ 11:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed that this should be enough content to publish already. However, ITM and N&N still need quite a bit of polishing and fleshing out (or removal) some of some placeholders (Soni just added a few to N&N). As mentioned above, I'm also working on RR and should have it in publishable form by the deadline. Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like we've had very little progress since on ITM and N&N - I would encourage anyone interested to just jump in and spend a bit of times to resolve some of the open items (most are clearly marked). My ETA re RR is now in about 4 hours from now. Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- Also there is a submission. jp×g🗯️ 07:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I took some lunch hour to close out the sections best I could. Possibly ready to publish. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:23, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Re [2] another reporter pinged WMF but I'll assume there was no reply. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Just noting here that HaeB declared RR ready "if need be", and I made a copyedit pass. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
20:16 Humour
[edit]Should be deleted, or perhaps be made into an opinion page with a ton of additional work. There is no humor in this, not one line that I could see. It's about a real article and real criticisms of the article. If I could make any sense of this, it might be simply the author's misunderstanding of how science works, but in any case it's not humor. @HaeB, Bri, and Svampesky: can anybody find 1 line here that is funny? Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Firstly, it shouldn't be submitted as an opinion piece since it's not my opinion. Secondly, it's not a critique of the article itself; it's directed at those who voted to delete it, in a non-offensive manner. In any case, I'm really busy, so there's my submission, and it's up to @JPxG whether he wants to publish it or not. The attempted humor is that its written as a tabloid-style exposé screed. Svampesky (talk) 15:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
It's about a real article
, yes—it's submitted to be published to a newspaper, a publication which covers current events. The humor column of a newspaper should cover news events in a humorous way. Svampesky (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Going to have to take some time to look at this. It was confusing to get to the point where I realized that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Problems with Einstein's general theory of relativity is not a joke. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it's a workday so I can't spend too much time on this. But I think Smallbones has a point. Either it should be a humorous article about a fictional situation, or an opinion article about a real situation. This straddles the fence and it leaves this reader uncomfortable. It also opens questions about what our editorial stance should be vis-a-vis US politics and "anti truth" matters, but that's probably another discussion.
- Final edit on this (I hope): Just to make my position clear, I think this could be a publishable Opinion article, but it needs to be clear that the AfD and PRODs really happened. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, but this should not be published as an opinion piece. Let me clarify that the content doesn't reflect my position—I don't think it's
worrying
that scientific consensus dominates Wikipedia. Svampesky (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2024 (UTC)- Still puzzling over how to present this. Especially since the POV in the article it is explicitly not Svampesky's opinion. Would it help to have an obviously fictional author name in the byline, linked to User:Svampesky? ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mind having my name in the byline, as long as it's published in the humor column. When someone tells a joke, it doesn't mean it reflects their POV. Svampesky (talk) 19:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Still puzzling over how to present this. Especially since the POV in the article it is explicitly not Svampesky's opinion. Would it help to have an obviously fictional author name in the byline, linked to User:Svampesky? ☆ Bri (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, but this should not be published as an opinion piece. Let me clarify that the content doesn't reflect my position—I don't think it's
You can't write about a real world situation with 2 groups of people who seem to be acting in good faith and just make stuff up about them. For one, at least one of the groups will say that you are just making stuff up about them. You can't just lie about your fellow editors. And your response will be "It's just humor"? They'll likely respond "where's the humor?" So I'll repeat my question now so you don't have to answer it again. "Can anybody show me 1 line in there that's funny?" You are right about one thing, @JPxG: can decide whether to publish it. There's no reason to discuss it further. If he does clear it for publication, both of you will be facing a "mob with pitchforks". Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- Humor plus inferred connections to U.S. politics. What could possibly go wrong? ☆ Bri (talk) 20:26, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- I had no intention of connecting it to American politics. I only wrote it because the issue seemed thin on the ground. I'm still struggling to see any connection, but if that's the case, publishing a humor column from the POV of those who are angry that scientific consensus dominates Wikipedia might be a current thing to joke about. Svampesky (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Svampesky, Smallbones, and Bri: As this was submitted past the deadline, publishing it would require resolving disagreements between multiple people and iterating over copyedits, and we are currently looking at a potentially historic actual on-time release of a Signpost issue, I am going to postpone this. jp×g🗯️ 23:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
We're so back
[edit]20:16 published, on time somehow. It is a bit thin, and I am chafed that I did not have time to throw my epic musings in the mix, but it is what it is. The price of freedom, or whatever.
Single talk page for all the issues at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Single/2024-11-18. Should make a watchlist notice request tomorrow.
Posts. jp×g🗯️ 00:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Great job again, team, especially on our compressed schedule (which I'm glad we stuck to): here's -> a handwritten robot letter for you to add to your brag file. I have already responded to a reader's comments on two articles about stuff that I feel could have been handled with more active staff. Not sure what to do about it but maybe it's time again to say "help wanted". Have seen some similar replies at various SP talkpages as well recently. ☆ Bri (talk) 00:32, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Getting comment about Wikimedia in India
[edit]- Summary
The Wikimedia Foundation is not going to talk about anything related to Wikimedia in India at this time, even if it is unrelated to this court case. Many people in Wikimedia community of volunteers in India are - in my view - afraid to talk about either routine Wikimedia organizing in India or comment on the ANI court case.
- What to do with this information
The Wikimedia community repeatedly directs The Signpost editors to get support and comment from the Wikimedia Foundation. The information here is the complete answer to that community request. I consider WMF communication on India-related issues closed now. If any community volunteer wishes to insist that the WMF say more, then such people can contact the WMF themselves while linking to this update, and try to convince the WMF of whatever they like.
There is interest in getting journalism from community members. Here is some documentation about the challenges in doing that.
All this information establishes journalistic diligence in trying to reach out, and justifies The Signpost continuing its r reporting in the absence of comment from some key stakeholders.
- Wikimedia volunteer community
First, I wrote to the Wikimediaindia-l closed, subscription only mailing list with this message. I am copying here even though the email is archived, because the mailing list is closed. https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/HJSMT5QSDR3VTPJJMJAT4QGFMB5VLH3M/
Lane's letter to the India mailing list
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Hello Wikimedia editors in India, My name is Lane. I am an editor for The Signpost, which is English Wikipedia's community newspaper for Wikimedia news. In the last issue I organized some articles about the Asian News International Court case. You can read those at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2024-11-06 In particular, check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-11-06/In_focus I am writing now to ask for submissions for additional journalism. I request two kinds of articles: one, if anyone would like to write journalism with community reactions to the court case, then that is welcome. Separate from that, this court case brings attention to the Wikipedia community in India generally, and if anyone would like to talk about this while the world is looking and interested, then now is a good time. The Signpost is a community volunteer publication so it helps us if you can organize your own submission, and then bring a draft for us to review. Submit drafts at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions . If you have general questions for the editors then ask at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom If anyone wants to submit or publish something privately or confidentially, then you can email me or have a friend forward your message to me somehow. I say this because Wikipedia editors are getting sued right now, and I can understand that some people with views to share may not want their Wikipedia name or offline identity out there. Your perspective is still valuable though. From a global Wikipedia community perspective, here are interesting questions to answer:
For people interested in the court case, here are some questions which may be interesting:
Thanks! Publishing happens every two weeks, so there is not a real deadline, as we will always be publishing an issue soon. However, this is a hot story right now, so if you want maximum interest to your perspective, publishing end of November or mid December is ideal. Next publication may happen in 2-3 days which is too soon for a long story, probably. best wishes |
I have some responses to this. No one volunteered to talk publicly by their name. All respondents were private and cautious.
- Wikimedia Foundation
I wrote to Wikimedia Answers <answers@wikimedia.org>. This is a Wikimedia Foundation communication channel for general inquiries. They said that they would not reply to the following email because of active legal issues.
I think there are no reports to share about Wikimedia's activities in India. Like, of all the projects there over years and of all the money invested, there are no public facing reports. What I was hoping for was something like for every US$1 million spent or for every year that passed, then someone would take an hour to write a one-page outcome summary. Nothing of that sort exists of which I am aware, and I should be aware with the effort I have made to find it.
Lane's letter to staff
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Hello Rachit, My name is Lane and I am an editor for The Signpost. I presume that you saw my articles about Asian News International. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2024-11-06 Let's leave Asian News International versus Wikimedia Foundation completely aside. I have no questions about that. However, in the context of the attention on the Wikimedia community in India, I am writing to ask you for comment for The Signpost. Here are some questions:
thanks for your attention |
Bluerasberry (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
- Let me see if I'm getting this last part right. The WMF official responsible for foundation-community communications for the region, who has "Communications Specialist" in their title, won't say a word about their activities in any respect, including simple questions like what's a good overview of your work that I can review, because of the ANI-vs-WMF case? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Bri: Yes, that is the stated reason, and that is the key insight and interesting takeaway from the response.
- I can only guess, but here are some more plausible reasons for not answering:
- That WMF staff person is not a Wikimedia community member, so does not speak for the community. I am not sure what they do, but perhaps they organized a WMF/Google partnership, and perhaps they hired Instagram influencers in India to talk about the Wikimedia Foundation fundraising campaign. What they do may be more about talking with people outside of Wikipedia than anything about the wiki community itself.
- The WMF truly does not have summary documentation or a communication strategy on its investments in India. If such information existed, then it would already be published, and either I or the Indian community would know about it. Also, I know the state of United States WMF programs, and they are not reported for my home region, so I am not surprised that they are not documented for India either.
- The Wikimedia community in India is very anxious about Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act, 2010 and has the belief that the WMF is non-compliant with this regulation. The popular interpretation of this law that I hear from volunteers is that people in India are not supposed to accept nonprofit funding except through an FCRA-compliant organization registered in India, and that organization should be a Wikimedia India organization but that does not exist. I set up meta:WikiProject Bribery to document some stories I have heard that people who receive money from the WMF get government official visits asking for bribes due to not being appropriately registered. I have no idea what to think of this except that whatever the situation, FCRA makes people anxious.
- Volunteers in India who do outreach or community organization wish to be invisible at this time, regardless of what they are doing. If WMF produced a report of basic community activities, then due to political and media attention right now, typical random volunteers whose projects were the subject of discussion could get hyper attention. For example, if a volunteer hosted a casual meetup one time for 20 people, then due to media frenzy, it is possible that media sources treat that as an official Wikimedia Foundation program in India, dox the organizers, and generally misunderstand what it means for wiki volunteers to meet, i.e., for a photo walk or library book scanning event.
- Bluerasberry (talk) 21:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
New article to be copyedited
[edit]I've a first version of my new contribution to the Signpost : User:PAC2/Signpost Opinion1. Your feedback is welcome. PAC2 (talk) 22:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
20:17 Opinion
[edit]Hi all. I was asked to write an opinion by Svampesky and have just realised that since I've never written for Signpost before, I have no idea of the etiquette, formatting or process. I've dropped it in Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Opinion - but please feel free to delete / format / reword or whatever wizardry you do as editors. If there's anything you need me to do, let me know. WormTT(talk) 14:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the submission. There aren't too many rules for opinion pieces, but I'll sort out the formatting. Svampesky (talk) 16:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
20:17 Op-ed
[edit]Searching through Signpost archives, the page name should be in sentence case as 'Op-ed' and not 'Op-Ed', so this should be noted before publishing. Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Op-ed is ready for copyediting and the transcript can be found here.
Thank you for allowing us to republish the essay, @Tamzin. Would you like to select a cover image for the column? Svampesky (talk) 16:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Since it happens to be freely licensed, I don't see how I could not pick File:HobbyTown USA Oshkosh interior under construction 2002 (The Backrooms).jpg. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 16:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I redirected Next issue/Op-Ed to the submitted Op-ed, which might have been a bludgeon. Update the article status table picked up Op-ed and listed them both, so I removed the redirect. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Disinformation report
[edit]I've started the new Disinfo report at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Disinformation report. For some reason the template for it had disappeared, but I recreated it (sort of). It doesn't show up on the Newsroom page, but it does on the current issue page. But it doesn't have a 20:16 comment page. The report is now just 4 sections of revisited articles. There will be at least 2 more sections. Comments, and even preliminary copy editing are welcome. I do intend to write more disinfo reports, so I'd appreciate somebody recreating it in full Smallbones(smalltalk) 00:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
New CSD: T5
[edit]Noting that WP:CSD#T5 now exists. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Unused template subpages SerialNumber54129 14:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
20:17 News and notes
[edit]Administrator elections debrief
[edit]Does anybody want to volunteer to do a review of Wikipedia:Administrator elections/October 2024/Debrief? The discussion seems to have wound down a bit. A writeup could take some time, or it could be more off-the-cuff. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Issue 20:18
[edit]It might be a good time to discuss whether folks will be around to help put together an issue at the end of the month, which coincides with several holidays observed in English speaking countries. Also, if it is happening: should there be some specials considered for an end-of-year edition? Maybe JPxG will re-vamp the December 28, 2021 Deletion report, huh? And, say, Smallbones's Xmas Eve 2024 Gallery wasn't bad, either. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)